GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

[drum118]

I do want to point out that Cooksville station opened with tactile strips on the north end of the platform where there is no track. Unfortunately I don't work at Metrolinx so I don't know what the thought process is, but it does imply that they designed it assuming they would use the northern track in the case of service expansions.

Cooksville Platform and area was built to handle a future north track when it happens. The only thing that will have to be addressed when that track is installed is what happens to the access to the platform from Hurontario as it is currently where the new track is to go.

I did some arterial looking at the corridor last night to confirm a few things I knew that having GO on the south side will not work in several locations. Kipling is the worst one and will have to be shifted further west than the current location. Lisgar has little room on the south side to have a platform built for it before removing the existing one. Meadowvale station shows tracks on one side, but the maps are outdated for a substantial portion of the corridor.

GO storage yard looks like it can be moved to the south side as well enlarge. I prefer to try to get a firsthand look to be 100% sure and not on my radar currently.

Both Erindale and Wolfdale roads will have to be close to build the grade separation as there is no land to swing the road to keep it open. Several businesses will be affected by the grade separation that there is no access to them once completed. One will see one access to it being removed.

It will not be easy or cheap to move GO to the southside like some thinks it should be as well how long it will take to do so. A fly under will not cost $100 million to do and is still the cheapest option of getting GO to the north side.

 

[afransen]

Lisgar has little room on the south side to have a platform built for it before removing the existing one. Meadowvale station shows tracks on one side, but the maps are outdated for a substantial portion of the corridor.

Honestly I think moving Lisgar makes more sense. Then we would not need to bother with a grade separation at Tenth Line. If we cast our minds forward, there will be a 407 transitway built in some form. That transitway should have a connection to the Milton Line at Ninth Line, about 1.5km away from Lisgar GO. Lisgar could be moved closer to Winston Churchill, which would have more natural ~2km stop spacing between Meadowvale and Ninth Line. The employment lands owned by Smartcentres at Argentia/Winston Churchill is slated for conversion to mixed use for high density redevelopment. It's not included in that review, but there is a grocery store at that intersection that could be redeveloped into a TOC station (in partnership with the current owner). This site is much closer to the highway for GO Bus connections, Steeles BRT, etc. and makes the station more accessible for the industrial uses on the north side of the 401 (and the thousands of warehouse workers). Lisgar's current site is not ideal for TOD as it is located next to the hydro ROW that occupies much of its walkshed.

 

[reinventingthewheel]

Both Erindale and Wolfdale roads will have to be close to build the grade separation as there is no land to swing the road to keep it open. Several businesses will be affected by the grade separation that there is no access to them once completed. One will see one access to it being removed.

Those two closures and constructions will definitely have to be staggered. I think the respective detours should be tolerable though. Erindale crossing is a decent climb above the roadway to the south, I’d think this one would be pretty straightforward with a closed road and low rail traffic.

 

[dowlingm]

It will not be easy or cheap to move GO to the southside like some thinks it should be as well how long it will take to do so. A fly under will not cost $100 million to do and is still the cheapest option of getting GO to the north side.

But put it where? The obvious answer is somewhere between West Toronto Diamond and Kipling.

Because of avoiding construction interfaces with the subway, now you’re probably looking at east of Islington. Then you have the Dundas Street overbridge which looks tricky to get a fourth track through never mind an alignment shift.

I don’t have an elevation map but getting up and down somewhere in Lambton Yard even with passenger train grade limits seems difficult without impacting Runnymede, Jane or Scarlett roads beneath. If CP could be persuaded to remove remaining yard activities from there, maybe their main tracks could be elevated and curved a bit so GO wouldn’t have to go down as far? But that depends on what CP’s own business interests require, especially with Obico divested, Leaside mothballed, etc.

The place that seems likeliest to have enough space to work with is in the area of Lambton Arena and a new bridge over the Humber, but even then it looks *very* tricky, and tricky means $$$

 

[crs1026]

But put it where? The obvious answer is somewhere between West Toronto Diamond and Kipling.

Because of avoiding construction interfaces with the subway, now you’re probably looking at east of Islington. Then you have the Dundas Street overbridge which looks tricky to get a fourth track through never mind an alignment shift.

I don’t have an elevation map but getting up and down somewhere in Lambton Yard even with passenger train grade limits seems difficult without impacting Runnymede, Jane or Scarlett roads beneath. If CP could be persuaded to remove remaining yard activities from there, maybe their main tracks could be elevated and curved a bit so GO wouldn’t have to go down as far? But that depends on what CP’s own business interests require, especially with Obico divested, Leaside mothballed, etc.

The place that seems likeliest to have enough space to work with is in the area of Lambton Arena and a new bridge over the Humber, but even then it looks *very* tricky, and tricky means $$$

Going up is pretty easy. Going down is problemmatic due to the underpasses at Keele, Runnymede, Jane, and Scarlett.

The Davenport flyover ramp fits between Bloor and Wallace, which is about 476m. Keele to Runnymede is 1.4 km, Runnymede-Jane is 700m, Jane - Scarlett is 628m. Scarlett to Lambton Arena 628m. West of the Lambton arena, there is an overhead power corridor that would have to be moved, and the curvature and row slope becomes tricky.

Unlike Davenport, there is no community being cut in half by a flyover, and no tall buildings in proximity.

I suppose an underpass might fit between Keele and Runnymede, but the disruption to CP during construction would be much greater than a flyover.

- Paul

 

[drum118]

Honestly I think moving Lisgar makes more sense. Then we would not need to bother with a grade separation at Tenth Line. If we cast our minds forward, there will be a 407 transitway built in some form. That transitway should have a connection to the Milton Line at Ninth Line, about 1.5km away from Lisgar GO. Lisgar could be moved closer to Winston Churchill, which would have more natural ~2km stop spacing between Meadowvale and Ninth Line. The employment lands owned by Smartcentres at Argentia/Winston Churchill is slated for conversion to mixed use for high density redevelopment. It's not included in that review, but there is a grocery store at that intersection that could be redeveloped into a TOC station (in partnership with the current owner). This site is much closer to the highway for GO Bus connections, Steeles BRT, etc. and makes the station more accessible for the industrial uses on the north side of the 401 (and the thousands of warehouse workers). Lisgar's current site is not ideal for TOD as it is located next to the hydro ROW that occupies much of its walkshed.

View attachment 541256

Everything north of the tracks will never see residential development or TOD under the current thinking of council. There was a proposal last year to change the plaza across the street from the grocery store to a TOD and the city refused it outright as they wanted to leave it as employment land, and it would create more traffic issues. Even the locals were split on that issue

When Lisgar was built, there wasn't anything around it with a plan to grade separate Tenth line at a future date. Today, several employment places have been built along with roads.

If you move the station to the 403 area, you have several issues doing so from how getting transit to it, how well people who walk to the station now get to it considering local transit is poor in the first place other than driving if they have access to a car? The area is low density in the first place.

Moving the station to the grocery store site will require the store to relocate, must build a parking structure to house parking with traffic becoming a greater nightmare for that intersection than it is today which is bad and more so when the 401 goes down.

I stand to be corrected, but the CPKC mainline is 3-4 at Lambton yard with one track being used as a storage track. There is no room to the south for another track without major exportation for it

As for the fly under location, there are two options for the Humber River area. The first one is on the east side that has a curve starting to the east of the river and ending east of the arena. The other option is west of the river to Royal York/Dundas. I would need to see the area to be sure than solely relying on the map to say this where it should be built.

If CPKC abandon Lambton Yard, a flyover will work there with no issue. A flyover will work at the west end of the yard starting west of Jane and ending west of Scarlett Rd

Lambton current mainline will be a pinch point for 15-minute service without a second track as well reinstalling the second track into the Weston Subdivision that used to be there.

 

[afransen]

Everything north of the tracks will never see residential development or TOD under the current thinking of council.

Is there a decision on that? I heard they reported to council in December.

 

[smallspy]

Going up is pretty easy. Going down is problemmatic due to the underpasses at Keele, Runnymede, Jane, and Scarlett.

The Davenport flyover ramp fits between Bloor and Wallace, which is about 476m. Keele to Runnymede is 1.4 km, Runnymede-Jane is 700m, Jane - Scarlett is 628m. Scarlett to Lambton Arena 628m. West of the Lambton arena, there is an overhead power corridor that would have to be moved, and the curvature and row slope becomes tricky.

Unlike Davenport, there is no community being cut in half by a flyover, and no tall buildings in proximity.

I suppose an underpass might fit between Keele and Runnymede, but the disruption to CP during construction would be much greater than a flyover.

- Paul

I suppose that you would know better than most here, but historically Hydro (both provincially and locally) has been extremely hostile to other, outside organizations asking them to move or modify their fixed plant.

I can think of at least a half-dozen reports commissioned over the years from agencies such as GO, TTC and others who looked at as simple as moving hydro pylons to facilitate whatever projects they were looking at, and getting an answer of flat-out "no".

Dan

 

[crs1026]

I suppose that you would know better than most here, but historically Hydro (both provincially and locally) has been extremely hostile to other, outside organizations asking them to move or modify their fixed plant.

I can think of at least a half-dozen reports commissioned over the years from agencies such as GO, TTC and others who looked at as simple as moving hydro pylons to facilitate whatever projects they were looking at, and getting an answer of flat-out "no".

Exactly - my comment was a bit oblique, what I was trying to suggest was that moving that particular overhead obstruction is likely a total non-starter, so there will be no talk of a flyover under it.

- Paul

 

[Metroscapes]

Perhaps a bus interchange could be built where the 403 passes under the CP line, in conjunction with completing the Mississauga Transitway, which would allow for quick and easy connections with Erindale Station.

That would allow for frequent two-way service to Erindale to start, as the really complicated grade crossings are closer to Streetsville.

A bit tangential, but creating some kind of bus interchange here would also be a great opportunity to create an active transport crossing under the line. I was where the utility corridor meets the tracks yesterday, and together with the Credit River, it's such a barrier between neighbourhoods, the Riverwood Conservancy, and Hewick Meadows.

I can see one big complication: it's not only home to hydro lines, but also a natural gas and an oil pipeline.

 

[lenaitch]

Exactly - my comment was a bit oblique, what I was trying to suggest was that moving that particular overhead obstruction is likely a total non-starter, so there will be no talk of a flyover under it.

- Paul

It might be akin to VIA's relationship with the freight carriers. The regulatory means is there is someone is willing to exercise it. I have seen high voltage pylon moved/modified for highway corridor work; although I'm not sure I've seen circuits go through a major realignment. The clearances required do put some limitations on finding a completely new corridor, particularly in the GTA. I would imagine finding a brand new clear corridor for a couple of high Kv circuits anywhere around the GTA that isn't already protected would be nearly impossible. Of course, even if it were feasible, Hydro One would expect a proponent to pay for it.

It also might be a matter of corridor protection. Depending on clearances, it is possible to shoe-horn in lower voltage circuits if demand dictates. And, as mentioned above, other easements that share the corridor would have to be considered.

 

[crs1026]

It might be akin to VIA's relationship with the freight carriers. The regulatory means is there is someone is willing to exercise it. I have seen high voltage pylon moved/modified for highway corridor work; although I'm not sure I've seen circuits go through a major realignment. The clearances required do put some limitations on finding a completely new corridor, particularly in the GTA. I would imagine finding a brand new clear corridor for a couple of high Kv circuits anywhere around the GTA that isn't already protected would be nearly impossible. Of course, even if it were feasible, Hydro One would expect a proponent to pay for it.

It also might be a matter of corridor protection. Depending on clearances, it is possible to shoe-horn in lower voltage circuits if demand dictates. And, as mentioned above, other easements that share the corridor would have to be considered.

A hydro guy once explained to me that the transmission network is designed less like an extension cord and more like a wallpaper trough - have you ever tried to carry one of those around full of water without spilling? That particular transmission line crosses the city and feeds a number of inner-city transformer stations. It was also renewed just a few years ago. I suspect it is especially not to be messed with.

So yeah, I expect that there may be a regulatory route that is theoretically available but no one dares to push the button, and that may be the wisest course of action. This flyover doesn't have to be there, it can be located further east.

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

A hydro guy once explained to me that the transmission network is designed less like an extension cord and more like a wallpaper trough - have you ever tried to carry one of those around full of water without spilling? That particular transmission line crosses the city and feeds a number of inner-city transformer stations. It was also renewed just a few years ago. I suspect it is especially not to be messed with.

So yeah, I expect that there may be a regulatory route that is theoretically available but no one dares to push the button, and that may be the wisest course of action. This flyover doesn't have to be there, it can be located further east.

- Paul

I'm not sure I get the analogy but agree it is not to be messed with. The actual number of transmission circuits (as opposed to distribution) in the province is actually quite small. Every time they think about upgrading capacity of one in an urban area, people go nuts.

Someone will no doubt suggest that they bury them. Other than underwater cables, I'm not aware that it has been done at high voltages. Construction and maintenance issues aside, I'm not knowledgeable enough to know the physics and engineering implications.

 

[crs1026]

Someone will no doubt suggest that they bury them. Other than underwater cables, I'm not aware that it has been done at high voltages. Construction and maintenance issues aside, I'm not knowledgeable enough to know the physics and engineering implications.

The technology exists, but using it just to jog around an obstruction is very expensive. We can use that money to build transit or to bury wires. I know my preference.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

From the GO Transit/UP capital projects update, on the agenda of the next Mx meeting, we learn:

View attachment 539605
View attachment 539606

Report link:

https://assets.metrolinx.com/image/upload/v1707425516/Documents/Item_15.6_-_Capital_Projects_GO_UP_EN.pdf

Re CN and the Halton Sub reference in the report noted above, this part of the CEO report (given verbally) at the the Metrolinx board meeting last week might be relevant. Reference to news in the future for the Kitchener Line. Time-marked link here and transcript below.