Roads: Gardiner Expressway

[AKS]

Technically, the highway was only started in 1955. And the "industrial" sections (i.e. from Dufferin eastward) weren't finished until the 1960s...

Fair enough, but they didn't do anything to clean it after the industries moved out. I get the impression it didn't get any love or attention or no one cared as long as it doesn't fall apart. So far, I haven't come across the government having any proposals to "beautify" it other than plans to take it down. I guess there is no way feasible way to do it or impossible? The only way I can think of to make it less unslightly is to green roof it, but with all the condos so close by, trenching it would be a better idea. However that doesn't seem like the option the govt wants to use.

 

[TKTKTK]

The highway has been there since 1955. They could have cleaned it up when they built it. Instead they just plopped it on and did nothing. After 54 years and they did nothing, they either didn't care or have no solution.

I would say they didn't care, but for seemingly good reason: there was barely anything down there to care about.

If you didn't notice some of the posts on the forum. It's already happening. Someone condo at parklane or something, you could almost touch it as you drive by. Panorama looks pretty intimate too and I think probably another one. Also the city is suggesting to sell the land at 60 harbour street for builders to build a condo. The plot of land is small. The 3D design someone did showed how close the podium would touch the gardiner.

I don't have any problem with condos getting close to the Gardiner and making a highway wall of sorts. It looks fantastic downtown where it's filled in. I was just pointing out that as bad as it might get here, you'll never see something like the Chinese example. What's the closest they can build here, anyway? It's surely measured in metres...

I don't think even traffic lights would help. I was just walking at lower jarvis yesterday. My feeling of crossing it was "run run run before the traffic light turns." There were so many lanes...

To be fair, the lane configurations and ramps are confusing and painful for drivers, too. They're certainly not set up to optimize the experience for anyone.

...I would like to see them attempt to cover the gardiner with a green roof That would be the only way to let the gardiner stay. They would need a really long green roof/bridge so people can cross at will.

You can only deck over the Gardiner west of the core (which would be great, really).

As buildings go up in the East end, the Gardiner will be hidden from view (just like downtown).

I agree 11 lanes of traffic would kill to walk through. However, they could build bridges to go over them. That might solve the problem. Paths under it is not feasible.

I think the solution is to focus on humanizing Lake Shore and the rest of the space beneath the Gardiner. Bridges and tunnels just make it more of a barrier.

 

[Long Island Mike]

Toronto's Gardiner Expressway and the Waterfront...

Everyone: How good is the through-routing between the Gardiner Expressway and the Don Valley Parkway? Keep in mind I have never been on the Gardiner E past Yonge Street-and the DVP for that matter.

I understand the idea to remove the Gardiner's elevated structure from Toronto's Waterfront and replace it with a tunnel section as an example but we now know the experience Boston had with the Big Dig project with its cost overruns and waste.

I believe that Toronto or Ontario taxpayers would want something done-provided the cost does not break the bank!

I remember the protest when the Westway Project was proposed for Manhattan,NYC and how it would have been the most expensive road section for its length-4 or so miles-ever built. I feel that type of spending would not be tolerated in Toronto.

I understand that the Gardiner elevated structure is showing its age but can it be rehabbed at reasonable cost? That may be the way to go!

Thoughts from LI MIKE

 

[jks]

^ Yes, but the whole point of this is to make the waterfront more accessible to residents, and that just isn't gonna happen with just a rehabilitated structure!

 

[goreckm]

I always thought everybody's problem with the Gardiner being a barrier is really a problem with crossing underneath it, specifically, crossing Lakeshore. What if we got rid of Lakeshore completely (underneath the Gardiner in the downtown section) instead. Then, build a nice pedestrian walkway underneath, like on York St between Front and Bremner underneath the tracks. The key, of course, would be making the walkway at street level. This, I think, would satisfy commuters and people who want to walk. Of course, all the condos going up and preventing the area from looking like a wasteland will also help in making this possible.

With this extra space, they could run a portion of the waterfront LRT underneath, or maybe make it into a P.A.T.H. walkway, with retail stores lining both sides.

 

[TKTKTK]

^ Yes, but the whole point of this is to make the waterfront more accessible to residents, and that just isn't gonna happen with just a rehabilitated structure!

Nor is that going to happen by just taking down the Gardiner (which still leaves the rail embankment) and certainly isn't going to happen with a high-traffic 10-lane surface highway in its place.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I always thought everybody's problem with the Gardiner being a barrier is really a problem with crossing underneath it, specifically, crossing Lakeshore. What if we got rid of Lakeshore completely (underneath the Gardiner in the downtown section) instead. Then, build a nice pedestrian walkway underneath, like on York St between Front and Bremner underneath the tracks. The key, of course, would be making the walkway at street level. This, I think, would satisfy commuters and people who want to walk. Of course, all the condos going up and preventing the area from looking like a wasteland will also help in making this possible.

With this extra space, they could run a portion of the waterfront LRT underneath, or maybe make it into a P.A.T.H. walkway, with retail stores lining both sides.

Not a bad idea, but you'd still have the ramps from the Gardiner, which need to go somewhere...

I still think the phased approach is the best option. Let's not take about taking down the whole thing -- let's just talk about Jarvis to the DVP. What works in this section (tearing it down) probably won't work further west, where burying it might be the only workable solution.

It's not all-or-nothing.

 

[jks]

I stronly believe that the best solution is burying the Gardiner from Exhibition to the DVP (in other words, the entire elevated section). The section from Exhibition west can be decked over. I know it's prohibitively expensive, and there could be Big Dig-type problems, but Montreal does it well, so I don't see why it can't work.
...Oh wait....money... =(

 

[adma]

Montreal does it well,

Actually, burying the Ville-Marie didn't make it any less regarded as a gash of an Drapeau-era urban villain in the cityscape...

 

[AKS]

I don't have any problem with condos getting close to the Gardiner and making a highway wall of sorts. It looks fantastic downtown where it's filled in. I was just pointing out that as bad as it might get here, you'll never see something like the Chinese example. What's the closest they can build here, anyway? It's surely measured in metres...

I haven't been to etobicoke, but here's quote from 3Dementia regarding proximity to the gardiner.

I just drove by Panorama and I would describe its relationship to the Gardiner as "intimate" (10 feet)... only surpassed by Park Lane whose relationship is perhaps a little too intimate (welded to the expressway).

Panorama

Here's the 3D rendering by wyliepoon for 120 Harbrour St.

I think the solution is to focus on humanizing Lake Shore and the rest of the space beneath the Gardiner. Bridges and tunnels just make it more of a barrier.

There's also the issue of pollution. In the summer, downtown always seems to be engulfed with smog. It's not like it's anywhere else in the GTA. Just the downtown area. I don't know if even those green roofs will help off set it with the amount of traffic that goes through downtown.

I also forgot to mention another issue. I think Kristopher said while lining up at ACC to get in. The gardiner would splash water on the people waiting in line during rainy days. I think if the gardiner is kept, this is also another issue to address.

 

[Whoaccio]

There's also the issue of pollution. In the summer, downtown always seems to be engulfed with smog. It's not like it's anywhere else in the GTA. Just the downtown area. I don't know if even those green roofs will help off set it with the amount of traffic that goes through downtown.

I don't think you can really blame the Gardiner, specifically, for smog downtown. It only carries around 8% of trips into the core and does so in a much more fuel efficient manner than stop and go arteries like Avenue. Obviously the subway/trams produce no local emissions, but compared to other means of road traffic the Gardiner is pretty clean.

The more I think about it, the more I'm swinging around to the "beautifying" the Gardiner school of thought. I used to think this was a bit of a scam idea, and to some extent it still is, but it has its upsides. For one, there is something incomprehensible about spending 300 odd million dollars (and, in your heart of hearts, you just know it will be a lot more than that) on reducing the transit capacity of any mode. Something just doesn't sit right about that. Maybe if this was San Francisco, and the Gardiner got hit by an earthquake, demolishing it would make more sense than a (likely) billion dollar rebuild. The Gardiner is more or less fine though. I'm also less certain this is even a viable project. Miller came into office running to cancel a bridge. That was small potatoes compared to this, and I doubt that nobody will seize on it as a campaign issue. Its very polarizing and I can't imagine it being terribly popular.

Inevitably this usually boils down to the "car vs. public transit" debate and fair enough. One of the hallmarks of civility in that debate is that it should never change from promoting a particular method to punishing another. There are decent urban planning reasons to remove the Gardiner, but you don't have to dig to deep to see that there really isn't any attention given to the Gardiner's current users. Arguments to the effect that "they will simply disappear" seem odd. The point of transport planning is to increase a city's ability to transport people, not reduce it. We could probably shut down every unprofitable bus route in the City and those trips would "disappear." That doesn't make it sound planning. It is actually awful transit planning. People are more or less rational, if they are currently taking the Gardiner to work that would imply it is their best/only option. Removing it and not providing an alternative inherently means either forcing them to take a suboptimal route or simply not make the trip, both of which have quite negative implications.

 

[AKS]

That's why the city is trying to expand it's public transit routes. Compared to many advanced cities, Toronto is really behind. Yes there are people who argue Toronto has one of the best public transits in North America. But that's not good enough if they want to get people off cars and onto public transit to promote "clean air" and to try and reach the green house emissions goal. Since they're trying to promote Toronto as a financial centre and also encourage more residence to move downtown. They should consider the air quality and quality of life for those people downtown too. Otherwise they might put more pressures on the health care system of people get sick from bad air. Totally removing pollution is impossible, but we should take a step forward to improve air quality.

That being said, they shouldn't just worry about the gardiner and re-organize those roads better to increase pedestrian sidewalks and decrease driving roads.
From their harbourfront revitalization, they seem to realize the need to increase public space (sidewalks) and decrease roads. But there are other areas that need improving too. I guess it will take time with all the changes. Meanwhile, I just hope no accident comes from keeping the Gardiner up. It hasn't up to now, but one never knows in the future.

 

[Kitsune]

Can someone please explain this Park Lane welded to the Gardiner thing? What exactly, and where exactly, is it?

 

[MisterF]

There's also the issue of pollution. In the summer, downtown always seems to be engulfed with smog. It's not like it's anywhere else in the GTA. Just the downtown area.

The worst pollution actually tends to be along the major highways - especially the 401 and 427. I've seen plenty of smog outside the downtown area.

 

[taal]

The worst pollution actually tends to be along the major highways - especially the 401 and 427. I've seen plenty of smog outside the downtown area.

I second this ... I for one rarely notice pollution downtown that's a lot higher then the surrounding GTA ... in fact the, down at the waterfront, it always seems nicer.