Finch West Line 6 LRT

[urbanclient]

We need Doug Ford to step in and remove operations responsibility from TTC and hire Alstom/Mosaic to operate this line.

We're not waiting to "Q1 2026" for staff to make a report that still doesn't get the line to advertised speeds.

Yeah someone help me out here, does "no later than Q1 2026" mean by March 31, 2026 like I think it does?

From here:
View attachment 701810
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View attachment 701811

Also, why are there so many people saying stuff, like "signal priority could help, but more importantly they need to drive the tram faster, slow as a snail/25/30 kph is too slow."

Let me ask y'all this. How do you think the tram is supposed to drive faster when it is met with a red light 200 metres down the tracks from a stop? Is it supposed to go pedal to the metal to 60 km/h in 100 metres at 1.3 m/s^2, then go hard on the brakes down to 0 km/h right in time to stop at a light? Y'all are being lazy and regurgitating the same talking points without actually thinking about basic physical realities or doing some basic math.

Can everyone stop yapping about TSP when that isn't even the biggest issue this line faces?

For Finch even without signal priority just having trains run at the speed limit of the road and not cross intersections at 25 km/h would be a big improvement, and even more so if the signals can be set up to give trains green waves.

I'm concerned that the political initiative here is focused on signal priority, which while it will help, is ignoring the real problem with the line that politicians don't seem to be acknowledging - and that is that the TTC is simply operating the line far to cautiously. You could delete every stop light on the line and this thing would still have terrible travel times because the TTC refuses to run it faster than 30km//h.

Yes, the overly risk-averse, streetcar style operations do waste time. But as I demonstrated, by analyzing a 52 minute Line 6 run (which is the average time confirmed to me by a TTC instructor), the main issue is getting stuck at red lights and ~50 second average dwell times.

When you subtract the red light (10) and excess dwell time (8) from 52 minutes, you get 34 minutes, which is more than in line with what Metrolinx originally claimed ("33 to 34" and "38" minutes). This also disproves the other claims that [the main issue is] acceleration and cruising speed is too slow for Line 6. [...] The bigger problem is lack of strong signal priority—the current "conditional priority" might as well be "no priority"—and asinine dwell times of up to 90 seconds.

TL;DR red lights lead to 10 minutes of delays, which is more than the 8 minutes of excess dwell time. But, if both were removed, then this hypothetical 34 minute travel time would match Metrolinx's claims.

 

[11th]

I personally found Humber College Station to be alright in terms of shelter when I was there. Maybe they could add some heaters under the shelters.

It's better to just wait at the concourse and head down to the platform when the train approaches.

 

[Voltz]

The stations and stops of the line are built for SoCal weather. Waiting at Humber College and Finch West (slightly better) is unpleasant in winter.

The surface platforms are better than the ones on Eglinton even, more shelter coverage and a better concrete barrier between the vehicle lanes and the platform.

 

[Northern Light]

On a completely separate note, guys, how easy is it to find parking at Finch West this afternoon (around 2:45 pm)? I need to go downtown once in a million years, and sure enough there is a service disruption between York Mills and Eglinton.

I can't speak to today specifically; but in general, Finch West has lots of surplus parking, I mean lots! Shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Northern Light]

Yeah someone help me out here, does "no later than Q1 2026" mean by March 31, 2026 like I think it does?

Yes.

Also, why are there so many people saying stuff, like "signal priority could help,

I covered this yesterday, its one legitimate part of the issue, but far from the only part.

but more importantly they need to drive the tram faster, slow as a snail/25/30 kph is too slow."

That is covered by the motion which suggests a need to rethink TTC operating procedures.

 

[Northern Light]

To me, the biggest elephant in the room is that giving the train absolute signal priority so it experiences no delays at intersections is not even on the table. That's a silent admission of the fact that speed, frequency, and reliability of a rail line will always be constrained by its points of interaction with people and vehicles at intersections and level crossings. An urban transit line that doesn't have a dedicated and secured right of way from end to end cannot be considered rapid transit. Full stop.

See ION in K-W which typically runs with cascading green lights, and where left turns in front of trams is generally prohibited.

I'm all for subway/regional rail and entirely opposed to the way we have been building an operating LRT; but it is very much possible, even in Ontario to operate LRT as rapid transit, its merely that in Toronto we have been choosing not to do so.

 

[urbanclient]

Yes.

I covered this yesterday, its one legitimate part of the issue, but far from the only part.

That is covered by the motion which suggests a need to rethink TTC operating procedures.

I think you missed parts of my post

"Yes, the overly risk-averse, streetcar style operations do waste time." https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/finch-west-line-6-lrt.11783/post-2322552

"TL;DR red lights lead to 10 minutes of delays, which is more than the 8 minutes of excess dwell time. But, if both were removed, then this hypothetical 34 minute travel time would match Metrolinx's claims."

 

[6ixGod]

I mean, what’s done is done. But honestly, the fact we’re even talking about basic things like proper transit signal priority and covered platforms shows how half-baked this whole thing was from the start. People are freezing at stops with no shelters, Humber Station isn’t even fully covered, and the trains crawl because the signals treat them like an afterthought. Brilliant stuff!

A lot of these things can be fixed, but with the amount spent already….this would have been better underground or dare I say a subway. But trying to convince some people is impossible. Let’s be real: “TrAnSiT CiTy” was never about building proper rapid transit for a growing metropolis….it was about doing it on the cheap. David Miller and the rest of that out-of-touch crowd genuinely thought you could run a mega-city like Toronto with bargain-bin surface LRTs and call it visionary. Just embarrassing….even when they first announced it I cringed at how patchy the entire thing would look.

And just imagine if the full Transit City plan had actually been built….it would’ve been a disaster on an industrial scale for Toronto. Dozens of KMs of slow, street-running LRT stitched across a city that was already bursting at the seams, no proper weather protection, no grade separation, and constant fights with traffic. Toronto would’ve ended up with a patchwork of half-measures pretending to be rapid transit, all because a few politicians were obsessed with doing everything on the cheap and refusing to think long term.

EDIT: Toronto would have ended up looking like the hot mess Los Angeles is right now actually.

I don’t ever want another “LRT” built in Toronto ever again. This city requires subways and the downtown neoliberal elites can suck a pear for all I care….stop treating the outer boroughs like they don’t exist. This is 2025, not 1955.

I hope you’ve all learned your lessons.

 

[hw621]

I can't speak to today specifically; but in general, Finch West has lots of surplus parking, I mean lots! Shouldn't be an issue.

Thanks!

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

I don’t ever want another “LRT” built in Toronto ever again. This city requires subways and the downtown neoliberal elites can suck a pear for all I care….stop treating the outer boroughs like they don’t exist. This is 2025, not 1955.

I have news for you. Not every major corridor in this city is suitable for a subway. Because of this simple fact, the likelihood of more subways being built along major corridors is very low. LRT is more the more suitable mode for many corridors outside of the downtown core.

 

[Towered]

I mean, what’s done is done. But honestly, the fact we’re even talking about basic things like proper transit signal priority and covered platforms shows how half-baked this whole thing was from the start. People are freezing at stops with no shelters, Humber Station isn’t even fully covered, and the trains crawl because the signals treat them like an afterthought. Brilliant stuff!

A lot of these things can be fixed, but with the amount spent already….this would have been better underground or dare I say a subway. But trying to convince some people is impossible. Let’s be real: “TrAnSiT CiTy” was never about building proper rapid transit for a growing metropolis….it was about doing it on the cheap. David Miller and the rest of that out-of-touch crowd genuinely thought you could run a mega-city like Toronto with bargain-bin surface LRTs and call it visionary. Just embarrassing….even when they first announced it I cringed at how patchy the entire thing would look.

And just imagine if the full Transit City plan had actually been built….it would’ve been a disaster on an industrial scale for Toronto. Dozens of KMs of slow, street-running LRT stitched across a city that was already bursting at the seams, no proper weather protection, no grade separation, and constant fights with traffic. Toronto would’ve ended up with a patchwork of half-measures pretending to be rapid transit, all because a few politicians were obsessed with doing everything on the cheap and refusing to think long term.

EDIT: Toronto would have ended up looking like the hot mess Los Angeles is right now actually.

I don’t ever want another “LRT” built in Toronto ever again. This city requires subways and the downtown neoliberal elites can suck a pear for all I care….stop treating the outer boroughs like they don’t exist. This is 2025, not 1955.

I hope you’ve all learned your lessons.

You actually think a full scale subway is justified on Finch? Have you seen the place??

 

[Towered]

I have news for you. Not every major corridor in this city is suitable for a subway. Because of this simple fact, the likelihood of more subways being built along major corridors is very low. LRT is more the more suitable mode for many corridors outside of the downtown core.

Precisely. The one good thing about all the ugly stroads blanketing the inner suburbs is that they're wide enough to accommodate transit ROW's without having to tunnel. Aside from extensions to lines 2, 3, and 4, it's hard to imagine any place in the city that will ever justify another full subway. Possibly another one cutting through downtown, but even that would be decades off.

 

[ARG1]

I mean, what’s done is done. But honestly, the fact we’re even talking about basic things like proper transit signal priority and covered platforms shows how half-baked this whole thing was from the start. People are freezing at stops with no shelters, Humber Station isn’t even fully covered, and the trains crawl because the signals treat them like an afterthought. Brilliant stuff!

A lot of these things can be fixed, but with the amount spent already….this would have been better underground or dare I say a subway. But trying to convince some people is impossible. Let’s be real: “TrAnSiT CiTy” was never about building proper rapid transit for a growing metropolis….it was about doing it on the cheap. David Miller and the rest of that out-of-touch crowd genuinely thought you could run a mega-city like Toronto with bargain-bin surface LRTs and call it visionary. Just embarrassing….even when they first announced it I cringed at how patchy the entire thing would look.

And just imagine if the full Transit City plan had actually been built….it would’ve been a disaster on an industrial scale for Toronto. Dozens of KMs of slow, street-running LRT stitched across a city that was already bursting at the seams, no proper weather protection, no grade separation, and constant fights with traffic. Toronto would’ve ended up with a patchwork of half-measures pretending to be rapid transit, all because a few politicians were obsessed with doing everything on the cheap and refusing to think long term.

EDIT: Toronto would have ended up looking like the hot mess Los Angeles is right now actually.

I don’t ever want another “LRT” built in Toronto ever again. This city requires subways and the downtown neoliberal elites can suck a pear for all I care….stop treating the outer boroughs like they don’t exist. This is 2025, not 1955.

I hope you’ve all learned your lessons.

I guess it's worth being fair and mention that a lot of issues with these LRTS came from value engineering. For instance I believe the original transit city plans called for heated lamps and more substantial protection, as well as strong TSP. However it's unclear whether a no-opposition Transit City AU would have still included them. It also doesn't address the fact that Transit City did a poor job evaluating alternatives and basically brute forced a one size fits all approach to transit planning.

 

[MisterF]

I agree but it should just show the Toronto city area and any GO train line past that should just show an arrow going outside the boundary, as well as show the streetcars.

Basically a combination of this map and this one

View attachment 701928

Why? The GTA is functionally one big city. Transportation demand doesn't stop at municipal boundaries. It's not like our system is so large that it can't be included in a single map.

 

[T3G]

I don’t ever want another “LRT” built in Toronto ever again. This city requires subways and the downtown neoliberal elites can suck a pear for all I care….stop treating the outer boroughs like they don’t exist. This is 2025, not 1955.

If this is the case, can Toronto do us a favour and secede from the province so that the rest of us don't have to pay for this nonsense with our tax dollars? I have zero interest in seeing subways built in environments that don't have the density to justify them, while transit outside the city continues to get shittier and shittier with every year.

Imagine paying billions of dollars on overbuilt infrastructure because Rob Ford invented a culture war that never existed before. What a ridiculous notion.