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Globe: TTC's hybrids fail to save amount of fuel it hyped

There's still some poles left in Hamilton from the electric trolleybuses. It's on King St.

I think people have gotten so used to the street that they don't even notice it. You'll find one at King and Locke St.
 
Hamilton's trolleybuses never went west of Main and MacNab, so the pole at King and Locke was either for something else, or pre-dates 1950, when the King West streetcar line was abandoned.

There were three routes: 1 King (via King and Main) from Main and MacNab , first to Reid, then to Eastgate Mall; 2 Barton, from Hughson, north on Hughson (south on James) to Barton and across to Bell Manor Loop; 3 Cannon to Roxborough and Parkdale (basically the same routes as exist today).

I have heard that there was a route 4 Burlington trolley bus, but I have seen little evidence apart that it would have followed an old streetcar line that lasted to near the end of service in 1951.
 
Next time I'll snap a picture. It's a pole that has an arm extending on to King. I see no current purpose for it.
 
Globe and Mail

TTC saddled with bad buses
More hybrid vehicles to come despite failing batteries, meagre fuel savings

JEFF GRAY
October 23, 2008

Those new - and expensive - hybrid buses on Toronto's roads have turned out to be unreliable lemons, with failing batteries and lacklustre fuel savings, so the city's transit agency is now recommending buying only "clean diesel" vehicles after 2010.

However, TTC officials say they are still on the hook to accept another 130 premium-priced hybrid buses next year. These vehicles are to be outfitted with new lithium-ion batteries, which the transit agency and the manufacturer, Daimler Buses North America, hope will work better than the current lead-acid ones.

The nine city councillors who oversee the Toronto Transit Commission are expected today to vote to scrap a plan, just approved in late August, to buy 120 more hybrids - which cost $734,000 each compared to $500,000 for a conventional bus - in 2010. Instead, TTC managers are recommending buying 120 of Daimler's "clean diesel" conventional-engine low-floor buses, which they say will save it $24-million.

In May, The Globe reported that a third of the rooftop lead-acid battery cells in use in the current fleet of 275 hybrids, which started arriving in 2006, had already worn out despite a promised four-year lifespan.

Now TTC staff say the battery problem has escalated, with as many as 140 batteries failing every week, conking out after just 18 months. This has forced buses off crowded routes and into the shop for maintenance, although TTC officials insist service has not yet suffered. There are also concerns about the buses' drive system. (Daimler has covered the maintenance costs, as the buses are still under warranty.)

TTC chairman Adam Giambrone said the transit agency would likely not have bought the more expensive hybrids - of which it will have nearly 700 in its 1,700-strong fleet by the end of next year - if it hadn't been a condition of receiving $300-million in federal funding.

He also said the TTC had sought to negotiate a way out of its contract for the 130 hybrids due to arrive in 2009, but he did not know if any progress had been made. TTC spokesman Brad Ross said yesterday the transit agency could not get out of its contract without paying penalties to Daimler.

While Mr. Giambrone said the TTC would consider hybrids again once the kinks have been worked out, TTC vice-chairman Joe Mihevc said the "clean diesel" engines the TTC now wants to buy instead are much cleaner than its old pollution-belching diesel buses.

"The incremental environmental benefit is not as great as anticipated and just might not be worth the cost," he said.

The battery failures come on top of TTC testing that has shown the buses are producing only half the expected fuel savings, using 10 per cent less diesel than a conventional bus instead of the 20 to 30 per cent less diesel that was originally promised, based on the experience with hybrids in New York. The TTC blames the lacklustre numbers on the fact that it has more suburban high-speed routes, where hybrid engines make less of a difference.

City Councillor Michael Walker (Ward 22, St. Paul's), said in an interview that the councillors on the commission should resign, that the TTC officials that approved the bus purchase and the contract should be fired and that the TTC should refuse to accept any more hybrid buses from Daimler, despite its contract.

"This is a huge error," Mr. Walker said. "Why would you carry on buying a flawed product? ... You reward that?"
 
I saw David Gunn talking about various transit issues earlier this year and he cited the hybrid purchase as something that made him shake his head. He said something along the lines of, it's great optics (the green element) but the maintenance costs will easily offset the fuel costs making it a bust.

He may have had something there...
 
David Gunn would have probably kept the trolley buses going instead if he was hired 2-3 years earlier - it was proven to be a huge mistake once the Orion and Flyer rustbuckets made their problems known right after that system was torn down.

He was the one that started up the GM rebuild program that saw those buses outlast many lemons that succeeded that model. David Gunn had a lot of faults, but he was what the TTC needed at the time, and what Amtrak needed when he took that over, until he was fired by Bush.
 
I saw David Gunn talking about various transit issues earlier this year and he cited the hybrid purchase as something that made him shake his head. He said something along the lines of, it's great optics (the green element) but the maintenance costs will easily offset the fuel costs making it a bust.

He still would have bought them. Either you take the money with strings attached or you don't take the money.
 
If the batteries are the only issue, I don't see what the problem is in replacing them when they break with more reliable li-ion Send the bill to the manufacturer with the implicit threat that they won't be getting any more orders unless they accept their responsibility for the current snafu.
 
If the batteries are the only issue, I don't see what the problem is in replacing them when they break with more reliable li-ion Send the bill to the manufacturer with the implicit threat that they won't be getting any more orders unless they accept their responsibility for the current snafu.

What does TTC do about replacing the batteries after the 4 warranty ends if they are failing now? Who going to pickup that extra cost after the 4 year and when does the 4 year finish related to this problem?

TTC stated at least 20 buses are failing daily leaving riders on the street. I have heard, over 200 buses are tow off the street weekly.

On Monday, I saw 1573 on the hock on 512. Not the first time I have seen VIIR on the hock since I see more of than any of the others buses in the fleet this year.

There are a number of issues with these buses.

The Commissioners have given their blessing to staff to either get the 2009 order converted and if the problems cannot be resolved, cancel the 2009/10 orders and place the order with New Flyers. Love to see this happen.

The batteries cost $12,000 each.
 
The Globe is really on top of this issue:

TTC wants to reopen Daimler contract for hybrid buses
Diesel vehicles seen as more reliable

JEFF GRAY
October 24, 2008

The manufacturer of Toronto's hundreds of faulty hybrid-engine buses can expect a call this morning, the TTC's chief general manager says, after his political overseers voted to give him the authority to play hardball in new talks.

"The president will get a phone call," Gary Webster, chief general manager of the TTC, said in an interview. "There'll be meetings in the next few weeks to see if we can address this issue."

Many of the Toronto Transit Commission's nearly 500 diesel-electric hybrid buses have seen their rooftop lead-acid batteries fail after just 1½ years on the roads.

A handful of buses have even conked out mid-route, leaving passengers at the curb, TTC officials acknowledged.

The buses remain under warranty.

Yesterday, the nine city councillors who oversee the Toronto Transit Commission voted to buy more reliable "clean diesel" buses - which cost just $500,000 each instead of the $734,000 hybrids - in 2010.

They also voted to instruct TTC officials to try to renegotiate their contract with manufacturer Daimler Buses North America Ltd. in an effort to cancel the 130 more hybrid buses - although with new, lithium-ion batteries - to be delivered in 2009, and swap them for diesels.

And the commission voted to warn Daimler that the TTC might buy diesel buses from someone else, such as Winnipeg-based New Flyer Industries Inc., if the hybrid issues aren't resolved.

City Councillor Karen Stintz (Ward 16, Eglinton-Lawrence) called for an investigation into the bus purchase.

"There are chronic problems with the management at the TTC with respect to these purchases," Ms. Stintz said.

Adam Giambrone, the city councillor who chairs the TTC, dismissed such criticism, saying the terms of a funding agreement with Ottawa meant the buses had to be hybrids.

He said the TTC believed hybrid technology would work based on New York City's experience with the same bus.

On top of the battery problems, the buses have only achieved a 10-per-cent savings on fuel, despite a promised 20 or 30 per cent.

TTC officials say differences between traffic congestion in Toronto and New York are responsible for both the disappointing fuel economy and the battery problems, as faster traffic in Toronto is wearing the batteries out.

Patrick Scully, chief corporate officer for Daimler Buses North America - which has a Mississauga plant - said that new software may help and that his firm is confident its new lithium-ion batteries will prove superior.

"We'll work with TTC staff to develop solutions that work both for them and for us," Mr. Scully said in a telephone interview.

However, he would not commit to paying the entire cost of switching the current lead-acid fleet to lithium-ion.

He said converting the existing hybrid order to conventional diesel buses would be "very difficult."
 
So it has been reported from several sources that the TTC is seriously considering ordering from New Flyer instead, and I say it's about time. Not even MT is willing to buy from Orion anymore.
 
We ended up near the Orion plant and shot some photo's and video's.

4 buses waiting for pickup with 22 in the back. 1218 was on run 66 when it die and in the yard. 1200's to 1675 could be seen in the yard.

Over on Winston Churchill at System 55 yard, close to 50 buses could be seen ranging from 1400's to 1600's sitting behind the fence.

With staff been given permission by the commission, staff has the ability to terminate the contract and place an order with NFI for 120-250 buses.

One only hope the Order is place with NFI as TTC is putting their eggs in one basket and if it breaks, it will pull TTC system down a lot.

Other than OC, which other system in Canada is buying Orion Hybrids other than TTC? OC has been burn on NFI buses and is looking else where these days.

I guess my comments to TTC commissioners and videos a months ago help some of the commissioner to have a real look as to what is going on with these buses.

Current photo's as of Oct 25. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5GM_NstQbg
 

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