Transit City: Finch-Sheppard Corridor

[kEiThZ]

Just the idea of conversion is so idiotic it's completely ridiculous that it's being considered. Spending MORE money for LESS capacity. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

It's not necessarily more money for less capacity. I am fairly sure if you take the funds for a subway extension and apply it to build LRT for the length of Sheppard you would see a net increase in passenger-km capacity. So it's not necessarily a reduction in capacity. It's trading excess capacity on the current Sheppard line for LRT capacity along the whole Sheppard corridor.

 

[Dan416]

Except for the fact that, you know, we already have a Sheppard subway. Amazing how many people want to turn the clock back on that. I totally agree with Scarberian that downgrading Sheppard is rooted in unhappiness with Lastman's influence to get Sheppard built over Eglinton. Now it's payback time for that.

 

[kEiThZ]

CC,

I am merely trying to point out that it's not necessarily correct to say that conversion associated with a LRT extension is an absolute downgrade in capacity.

Metrolinx has shown no inclination to invest in the Sheppard line. If that's to be the case, then why should we not consider conversion? I am willing to venture that Sheppard will never become a priority. LRT is more than appropriate wrt capacity east of Don Mills. Once that is complete, it is highly unlikely that the subway will be extended if LRT proves adequate.

The question then becomes one of transfers. Should we eliminate the transfer at Don Mills? I think eliminating the transfer might draw in some riders from the parallel bus routes along the way. But I can also see the value in keep the subway as is to provide express service from Don Mills to Yonge in parallel with bus service. I just wonder if that makes sense financially when LRT can replace both those modes with a slightly slower service (we are only talking 6 mins over the current length of the subway).

East of Don Mills, riders seeing an upgrade from bus to LRT will actually see a net increase in speed along the corridor if the subway is converted. They will have a faster ride on LRT than the bus and not have to transfer. That'll probably negate the rise in travel time along the current subway route. So it's really a trade-off, those who live along the current subway will see a downgrade in speed, but those who live between stations and those who live east of Don Mills will benefit.

Lastly, I don't think its revenge against Lastman. For whatever reason, there are many who don't believe the Sheppard subway has been successful and would rather not throw good money after bad. I wouldn't agree with that. My reason for supporting conversion is one of reality. If we can't build the subway (neither Metrolinx or the TTC seems to be pushing for it) and there are other priorities (DRL), then why not convert the line?

 

[Voltz]

I doubt there would be much of a difference in speed between LRV's and subway cars in the tunnels, if any. In fact they would likely run LRV's more frequently, so less time would be spent waiting at stations.


I used to think that converting the Sheppard line was a stupid idea when I first heard about it. But then I actually though about it objectively.

 

[Rainforest]

Of course its stupid, I mean how dare they even think of reducing capacity, or eliminating a transfer or two for the mere 6100 per hour that Metrolinx is projecting will be using the sheppard line in 2031.

Let's compare these two (Appendix C of Modelling Backgrounder):

Sheppard subway (existing 5-station section): AM Peak Hour Boardings = 11,200; Peak Point Riders = 6,100; Annual Ridership = 22.9 million.

Yonge North subway extension: AM Peak Hour Boardings = 10,200; Peak Point Riders = 8,800; Annual Ridership = 19.8 million.

The two are in the same league. Sheppard is actually 10% higher on total AM peak boardings, while Yonge North is 30% higher on the peak point and 15% higher on annual ridership.

So, do we really want to build Yonge North subway, and downgrade Sheppard at the same time?

Furthermore, it is conceivable that Sheppard's ridership would increase if it gets longer. The eastward extension would justify diverting Finch E and Ellesmere bus routes to connect to the subway, whereas the westward extension would connect the north-east to the Spadina-YorkU subway, and the Spadina-YorkU subway to Yonge subway.

Note that another table (Table 1 on page 6) touts North York (Finch/Yonge, Sheppard/Yonge) as the biggest Anchor Hub (bigger than Richmond Hill/Langstaff, or than Eglinton/Yonge).

 

[Dan416]

CC,

I am merely trying to point out that it's not necessarily correct to say that conversion associated with a LRT extension is an absolute downgrade in capacity.

Metrolinx has shown no inclination to invest in the Sheppard line. If that's to be the case, then why should we not consider conversion? I am willing to venture that Sheppard will never become a priority. LRT is more than appropriate wrt capacity east of Don Mills. Once that is complete, it is highly unlikely that the subway will be extended if LRT proves adequate.

The question then becomes one of transfers. Should we eliminate the transfer at Don Mills? I think eliminating the transfer might draw in some riders from the parallel bus routes along the way. But I can also see the value in keep the subway as is to provide express service from Don Mills to Yonge in parallel with bus service. I just wonder if that makes sense financially when LRT can replace both those modes with a slightly slower service (we are only talking 6 mins over the current length of the subway).

East of Don Mills, riders seeing an upgrade from bus to LRT will actually see a net increase in speed along the corridor if the subway is converted. They will have a faster ride on LRT than the bus and not have to transfer. That'll probably negate the rise in travel time along the current subway route. So it's really a trade-off, those who live along the current subway will see a downgrade in speed, but those who live between stations and those who live east of Don Mills will benefit.

Lastly, I don't think its revenge against Lastman. For whatever reason, there are many who don't believe the Sheppard subway has been successful and would rather not throw good money after bad. I wouldn't agree with that. My reason for supporting conversion is one of reality. If we can't build the subway (neither Metrolinx or the TTC seems to be pushing for it) and there are other priorities (DRL), then why not convert the line?

because its a downgrade and it lowers capacity, thats why.

people dont mind transferring ONTO the subway system. people will go out of their way to get on the subway, but not for a streetcar.

 

[Voltz]

Capacity is a non-issue, it simply won't be needed on sheppard.

I'll ask again, What is the difference, to riders, between a subway car and a modern low floor LRV (Not streetcars) with level platforms?

The subway is not getting extended, this may be the nest best option.

 

[Rainforest]

Capacity is a non-issue, it simply won't be needed on sheppard.

I'll ask again, What is the difference, to riders, between a subway car and a modern low floor LRV (Not streetcars) with level platforms?

The subway is not getting extended, this may be the nest best option.

For riders boarding at the existing underground stations, speed won't change much if the line is converted to LRT. Capacity will be somewhat of an issue. LRT will suffice to handle the demand, but riders who used to board larger subway trains, now will have to board smaller LRT trains where all seats will be taken already.

But that is not the biggest problem. I see a few larger problems with the subway-to-LRT conversion plan:

1) Inconvenience for the riders while the line is closed for "anti-renovation".

2) Engineering risk. The tunnel hasn't been designed for LRT operation. What if it seems as it can be converted, but after the works start, some overlooked incompatibility pops up, and the tunnel cannot serve LRT properly? It will be very hard to go back.

3) Most importantly, the benefit-to-cost ratio does not look good. I don't know how much the tunnel conversion will cost (probably quite a bit, as apart of fitting pantographs into tunnels, something has to be done about the high-floor platforms at stations). But note that the tunnel conversion, per se, only eliminates one transfer (at Don Mills). If the goal is to create a continuous LRT line across all 416, the cost of tunneling west of Yonge must be added (Sheppard between Yonge and West Don river isn't wide enough for a surface LRT).

If Metrolinx is willing to spend considerably more money on the Finch - Sheppard corridor than the original Transit City plan envisioned, those money will likely generate more benefits for passengers if used for subway extension, rather than subway conversion.

 

[ShonTron]

Luckily, the pocket tracks on Sheppard extend quite a distance to the west, all the way to Wellbeck.

I wouldn't push for a Sheppard LRT subway conversion, because that's more money to "fix" a "problem". Of course, the best solution is to extend the subway to Victoria Park (the EA for it is still approved!), and forget the idea of LRT on Sheppard. Past Vic Park, the 85 bus is pretty reliable.

On the west end, the subway is already 20% built to Downsview! The subway was built so far west to allow for adequate connecting tracks to the Yonge Line, and of course, westerly expansion was not precluded.

 

[kEiThZ]

1) Inconvenience for the riders while the line is closed for "anti-renovation".

As some have pointed out, this can be mitigated....running one track, using more buses, moving one station at a time, etc. Avoiding construction is not really an excuse. The TTC is proposing the same thing for the RT in Scarborough. And look how packed that is now....

2) Engineering risk. The tunnel hasn't been designed for LRT operation. What if it seems as it can be converted, but after the works start, some overlooked incompatibility pops up, and the tunnel cannot serve LRT properly? It will be very hard to go back.

I am an aerospace engineer....and though not a traffic engineer, I would venture to say that any engineer who does not take this kind of conversion into account in the original design is not worth the money at all. Furthermore, any engineer will conduct a detailed design phase before construction starts. They aren't waiting to discover surprises. And if the worst comes to pass, it can still be worked around, subway construction is by no stretch of the imagination, design at the edge of engineering and science.

3) Most importantly, the benefit-to-cost ratio does not look good. I don't know how much the tunnel conversion will cost (probably quite a bit, as apart of fitting pantographs into tunnels, something has to be done about the high-floor platforms at stations). But note that the tunnel conversion, per se, only eliminates one transfer (at Don Mills). If the goal is to create a continuous LRT line across all 416, the cost of tunneling west of Yonge must be added (Sheppard between Yonge and West Don river isn't wide enough for a surface LRT).

We won't know until we study it, will we? Many here and perhaps the TTC are probably afraid of what they'll find...that LRT was probably suitable for all of Sheppard from the start, that conversion can be done for a reasonable price, that recovery rates might improve along the route, etc. Or their study might prove skeptics of the Sheppard subway wrong and end the discussion once and for all. Why won't they at least study the idea? And make the findings public so that we can have a real, informed debate.

If Metrolinx is willing to spend considerably more money on the Finch - Sheppard corridor than the original Transit City plan envisioned, those money will likely generate more benefits for passengers if used for subway extension, rather than subway conversion.

How so? Metrolinx is spending a fixed amount for two LRT lines. If that money went towards subway construction, then it's likely there would be no money for Finch at all, and nothing for Sheppard east of McCowan. LRT is more bang for the buck in this case.

In a dream world, where the province or the feds were willing to spend money on the subway, it'd be no big deal, but if the subway will cost LRT lines throughout the rest of the city, I am not willing to support it. The plan as constructed is probably a fair compromise. I'd support conversion if it was fair priced (250 million or 1-2 km of subway) just to reduce transfer, and increase convenience (lower stop distances). I don't think a few minutes more on an LRV is really all that bad. A few folks might complain but I am skeptical that conversion would result in masses of passengers turning back to the car.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Metrolinx is not proposing to spend a fixed amount of money, they're suggesting certain projects be funded in full and whatever these projects cost is what they'll cost...they're not dividing up a limited amount of money.

If they won't extend the subway, we're better off keeping the buses for now...the subway can always be extended at some point in the future and there's a dozen far better places in this city to build billion dollar LRT lines than Sheppard east of Agincourt. The 190 is a good service and a similar Rocket branch could be run all the way along Sheppard, reducing travel times at least as much as a streetcar ROW will but costing practically nothing. ShonTron is right in that the Sheppard buses' reliability increases as you go east...the often gridlocked conditions around the 404/VP/Warden do not continue on past Agincourt (Sheppard is 6 lanes west of Pharmacy).

Extending Sheppard westward is not only indicated by the tracks which go west to Welbeck...Sheppard-Yonge station was triple-platformed for a reason.

 

[DavidH]

Metrolinx is not proposing to spend a fixed amount of money, they're suggesting certain projects be funded in full and whatever these projects cost is what they'll cost...they're not dividing up a limited amount of money.

True, but they are still setting some level of acceptable overall cost. The test cases they showed in the white papers went up to the $90B mark, including the full completion of Sheppard as a subway. At the time, the informal word was that the agency was leaning towards being as aggressive as possible.

Now, we have a $55B program that does not include some of the more expensive items shown in the web test case. It's a reasonable extrapolation that Metrolinx came to the conclusion that the $90B mark was not politically or practically possible. Of course, we have no idea how this particular budgetary mark was set - this is one of the many failures of the Metrolinx RTP, that so much critical information is not available to the public. We just don't know why these particular projects were chosen over other projects.

 

[Dan416]

I don't think converting Sheppard to LRT would be particularly challenging from an engineering perspective. I just think it's a dumb idea. I think Scarberian is right, I'd rather leave it as is than convert it to LRT. I'd also rather not built a Sheppard East LRT. If you're not going to do it right, don't waste money doing it wrong. Extending Sheppard west to Downsview and east to STC would at least realize the Sheppard line's potential, and we would see further intesnification along the entire length of that corridor. And beyond those points, express buses/regular buses are all that are needed.

 

[Mike in TO]

Not really sure if this is the right thread, but an update on the Sheppard LRT:

On Tuesday Oct 21 a report to the Government Management Committee will recommend approval for the TTC to engage in negotiations to acquire portions of multiple properties along Sheppard Avenue East, Agincourt Drive, Lamont Avenue and Reidmount Avenue. The acquisitions are required to move forward on grade separation and road widening for the Sheppard East LRT line. The properties would permit the widening of Sheppard Avenue East between Highland Creek and Midland Avenue and would allow for grade separation at the Agincourt GO Station. The report also recommends that authority be given to initiate expropriation proceedings, if necessary.

 

[M II A II R II K]

I had to ride both the Finch West and Finch East bus today just after 11AM.

The traffic was light and both busses didn't stopped at less than half the stops and pretty much sailed down the street, kinda makes me wonder whether it's even worth putting a seperated LRT on Finch to begin with if the bus is fast enough.