Palma
Senior Member
Dufferin has no destination because it's mainly residential starting from south of Eglinton and detached or semi-detached houses, other than Yorkdale and if Downsview park is ever developed
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pstogios
Senior Member
That's a good point but one that was not informed by a post about the street 50+ years ago.
Cobra
Senior Member
I know I'm off topic but Dufferin is in DIRE need of Rapid Transit. Status quo is a nightmare. DRL West to Eglinton under Dufferin would be more effective
WislaHD
Superstar
Not to derail this even further, but I totally agree.
There are a few things that are fairly clear at this point.
- Dufferin Bus is way over-capacity, it needs an alternative solution.
- Massive development is underway along the Dufferin corridor at points between Eglinton and Bloor, potentially totally overwhelming the Dufferin 29 Route.
- LRT won't work on Dufferin because it would have to be tunneled. LRT is a non-solution.
- Bloor line west of St. George and the Spadina line will need relief by 2035 projections.
This points to me that a subway line under Dufferin has the potential to solve multiple factors at once. Providing rapid transit to Dufferin corridor (which is needed) and providing relief to Spadina line (which is needed).
Rainforest
Senior Member
^ Indeed, extending DRL in the west up Dufferin might become a necessity. That, or otherwise we have to artificially restrict developments along Dufferin because we cannot support it either with public transit or with the road network (Dufferin is pretty much non-driveable already during the rush hours).
I thought of a kind of LRT solution that has some sections tunneled (roughly, Eglinton to Dundas), the north in street-median ROW (Eglinton to Wilson), and the southern chunk in mixed traffic. But, now I think that such mixed solution is not cost-effective.
I thought of a kind of LRT solution that has some sections tunneled (roughly, Eglinton to Dundas), the north in street-median ROW (Eglinton to Wilson), and the southern chunk in mixed traffic. But, now I think that such mixed solution is not cost-effective.
muller877
Senior Member
The Dufferin line will be hugely impacted by Eglinton. More than 1/2 the people coming from the North will likely shift off of the bus onto the LRT (and then use the University line to go downtown). Only the people that have destinations on the Bloor line will stay on.
The city is trying to emulate that for Jane with the Jane bus diverting to Black Creek stop.
Both are busy. However, i expect that the Dufferin bus has more short duration bus rides compared to Jane. Dufferin has a lot of trips that stop/start between King and Dupont while the Jane bus focuses on longer rides (post Eglinton). Which leads me to conclude Dufferin riders would prefer bus spacing for stops while Jane would prefer LRT/subway spacing.
I always find it fascinating looking at the N-S ridership in the west vs the east (and the E-W as well). Excluding lines that are (or are constructing) streetcars/LRT the top 3 lines are in the west. And yet we are planning to build more high order transit in the east compared to the west.
Hopkins123
Senior Member
I certainly hope that DRL West doesn't get frankensteined into a hybrid Dufferin subway.
There are far more communities to the west of Dufferin that need mass transit more (Parkdale, Swansea, High Park, Junction, Stockyards, Weston) that'll forever get screwed over if such a thing is undertaken.
29 Dufferin will NOT be s busy as it is today, if there's a subway at Queen and underground LRT at Eglinton to alleviate passenger loads.
There are far more communities to the west of Dufferin that need mass transit more (Parkdale, Swansea, High Park, Junction, Stockyards, Weston) that'll forever get screwed over if such a thing is undertaken.
29 Dufferin will NOT be s busy as it is today, if there's a subway at Queen and underground LRT at Eglinton to alleviate passenger loads.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Once the Eglinton West LRT reaches the airport, even more riders would only get to Eglinton before transferring west.
WislaHD
Superstar
I'd like a more detailed analysis of the Dufferin bus, because I am not sure how true that is. Just looking at basic residential density, it seems fairly obvious that the majority of ridership (and potential ridership) is between Bloor and Eglinton. I don't take the Dufferin line myself, but I hear from people who do that it is packed and yet many people are trying to squeeze on still in between Eglinton and Bloor.
Now it could be true that many people use the bus from Yorkdale to Eglinton (someone in the last page made mention that it is already packed by the time it reaches Eglinton) and that they will get off on the Crosstown. But that doesn't say that ridership would be poor south of Eglinton. Remember, we are talking about a 44,000 a day bus route.
Well it is not really a mystery is it? Scarborough subways are all politics.
And the west side already got their relief line through Spadina. It is a testament to the ridership on the west side that now we are in need of a second relief line.
WislaHD
Superstar
High Park has three subway stations and Swansea has two. The Stockyards needs an extension of the St. Clair streetcar. Weston community can be serviced by higher frequency bus route to Mt. Dennis (or in the future, a GO-RER stop at Weston)
How do you propose to serve The Junction? A stop at Jane and Dundas would do nothing for the majority of the Junction neighbourhood.
Parkdale however, is a good question. There are ways to service it well between Waterfront LRT and King Streetcar Mall, and I guess you could reroute the Roncesvalles streetcar down Queen to Dufferin. If Sunnyside could get a GO-RER station too.
Hopkins123
Senior Member
I'm presuming a Keele alignment. This would adequately serve Parkdale, and make serving real Swansea (Windermere/Queensway) a hop, skip, jump away from a Roncesvalles Stn.
The interchange at Bloor also gives the apartment communities of High Park a secondary alternative to the Bloor-Danforth to get around.
The Junction would be perfectly served via a station on Keele with a southern exit at Annette St and northern exit at Dundas St.
Beyond St Clair I presuming an alignment in the Weston Galt with more stops and better headways than GO could ever possibly achieve.
That's just a suggestion though. I ride the 29 every so often and while I find it does get crowded, I find that by Rogers Road heading north from Bloor, and Sylvan heading south; the bus truly starts to empty out.
WislaHD
Superstar
Keele is not a bad alignment either. It has lower ridership than Dufferin though, even if it does provide good coverage (as Dufferin does).
Ultimately, I would want both streets to be studied by the EA, and their pros and cons pitted against each other.
Steve X
Senior Member
Let's remember 44,000 daily riders don't warrants a subway. Dufferin is quite crowded in most parts of the day. TTC has also reduced service (on paper) on the 29 with artics and additional round trip times. It is suppose to reflect actual travel times and more of the advertised service is operated.
Subways or underground LRT (which is still subway) should have at least 5,000 pph in rush hour. The Dufferin bus carries like 1200 pph which is no where near subway territory. Dufferin doesn't have a high chance of becoming a popular regional corridor either as the Spadina Line is more direct and already serve that purpose. Plus the Dufferin bus's demand is on local stops. Local meaning people like to get on or off on side streets. They can still be going to Bloor but they get on a side street stop meaning they'll prefer to travel on the surface. A subway on Dufferin is really not going to work.
What the city needs to go is put in bus lanes. Cars are never sustainable in large cities. Having a subway everywhere is not either.
Jane should be prioritized after the DRL and Don Mills. The Jane LRT EA never really finished. I don't recall them every support a specific alignment. Eglinton Crosstown is going to be a big game changer for Jane. The 35/195 is already heaviest used north of Eglinton. Most of the people who head south of Eglinton head straight down the subway. All those people would soon use Eglinton LRT instead. TTC is going to run less service south of Jane after Eglinton opens. I'm going to argue that Steeles to Eglinton should be phase 1 and they can sort out whatever underground alignment they'll built south to Bloor later.
Subways or underground LRT (which is still subway) should have at least 5,000 pph in rush hour. The Dufferin bus carries like 1200 pph which is no where near subway territory. Dufferin doesn't have a high chance of becoming a popular regional corridor either as the Spadina Line is more direct and already serve that purpose. Plus the Dufferin bus's demand is on local stops. Local meaning people like to get on or off on side streets. They can still be going to Bloor but they get on a side street stop meaning they'll prefer to travel on the surface. A subway on Dufferin is really not going to work.
What the city needs to go is put in bus lanes. Cars are never sustainable in large cities. Having a subway everywhere is not either.
Keele is a big no-no. It's doesn't even have the required ridership anywhere closed to a surface LRT during offpeak.
Jane should be prioritized after the DRL and Don Mills. The Jane LRT EA never really finished. I don't recall them every support a specific alignment. Eglinton Crosstown is going to be a big game changer for Jane. The 35/195 is already heaviest used north of Eglinton. Most of the people who head south of Eglinton head straight down the subway. All those people would soon use Eglinton LRT instead. TTC is going to run less service south of Jane after Eglinton opens. I'm going to argue that Steeles to Eglinton should be phase 1 and they can sort out whatever underground alignment they'll built south to Bloor later.
WislaHD
Superstar
Jane is going to have Finch West LRT and Eglinton Crosstown splitting its ridership.
Well remember, in this discussion whichever corridor north of Bloor won't be getting high ridership for the forseeable future whether it is Dufferin, Keele, or Jane. It is a matter of relief on Bloor and Spadina Subways, and catching large ridership/density of destinations south of Bloor.
If we send it north of Bloor, I'd hope we send it on an alignment that has development potential, reaches destinations, and solves overcrowding on local routes.
Well remember, in this discussion whichever corridor north of Bloor won't be getting high ridership for the forseeable future whether it is Dufferin, Keele, or Jane. It is a matter of relief on Bloor and Spadina Subways, and catching large ridership/density of destinations south of Bloor.
If we send it north of Bloor, I'd hope we send it on an alignment that has development potential, reaches destinations, and solves overcrowding on local routes.
Cobra
Senior Member
I see all the time at Dufferin station "southbound" the buse gets empty so passengers gets on the Bloor line, however the line ups to go further south is just as bad. The line is overcrowded south of Bloor as well. Eglinton LRT won't fix that