YRT/Viva Construction Thread (Rapidways, Terminals)

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I don't live in York Region, and rarely take transit there, for the same reason as everyone else who has a choice, awful service.

Accordingly, I filled out the survey.

I emphasized that the proposals lack ambition, and are inadequate to attract choice riders.

I strongly pushed 15-minute service on all core/spine routes, at all times except overnights; and 24-hour service on select routes.

The trouble with too much focus on core routes is that local routes can become ignored. This was evidenced in the early 2000's when YRT initially launched it's VIVA service, local routes began seeing service cuts.

Local routes are required to bring passengers to the trunk routes, particularly in York Region where there isn't sufficient density in most corridors to support the service you are asking for. Bringing passengers from further away with local routes is critical.

Think of it like the TTC and the subway, a significant percentage of subway riders arrive via connecting buses that stretch the catchment area of the subway station. Without it subway ridership would be pitiful.

 

[Northern Light]

The trouble with too much focus on core routes is that local routes can become ignored. This was evidenced in the early 2000's when YRT initially launched it's VIVA service, local routes began seeing service cuts.

Local routes are required to bring passengers to the trunk routes, particularly in York Region where there isn't sufficient density in most corridors to support the service you are asking for. Bringing passengers from further away with local routes is critical.

Think of it like the TTC and the subway, a significant percentage of subway riders arrive via connecting buses that stretch the catchment area of the subway station. Without it subway ridership would be pitiful.

I didn't suggest cutting service on local routes.

Service improvement has to start on the routes with the highest ridership, that provide the greatest convenience to the greatest number of riders.

I hasten to add though, I'm not a fan of many of the windy, convoluted local services in York Region.
They're not merely infrequent; they're not intuitive (where does it go?) and they're also slow because of the route windiness and because much of those routes are on low-speed residential streets.
The need, in the longer term is to punch new grid streets through the subdivision mazes.

Once you have a road-network that's more or less a 1km spaced grid-system, then transit can logically follow it, providing more frequent, faster, and intuitive service which will help drive ridership.

 

[ARG1]

I didn't suggest cutting service on local routes.

Service improvement has to start on the routes with the highest ridership, that provide the greatest convenience to the greatest number of riders.

I hasten to add though, I'm not a fan of many of the windy, convoluted local services in York Region.
They're not merely infrequent; they're not intuitive (where does it go?) and they're also slow because of the route windiness and because much of those routes are on low-speed residential streets.
The need, in the longer term is to punch new grid streets through the subdivision mazes.

Once you have a road-network that's more or less a 1km spaced grid-system, then transit can logically follow it, providing more frequent, faster, and intuitive service which will help drive ridership.

I think York Region Routes makes sense given how the suburbs are laid out. First, every arterial road has a bus route similar to Toronto (88 Bathurst, 91 Bayview, 90 Leslie, etc). Most of the weird convoluted local services are just the ones that travel within the small local streets in between the grid streets, and they convoluted and spaghetti like simply because that's how those areas area laid out. Unlike Toronto where you can find more or less straight streets within the midblock of the grid that you can run more local community bus services like the Cummer and Willowdale busses, in York Region you have to deal with... this:

What's shown in Black is the route that the 83 Trench takes here.

 

[Northern Light]

I think York Region Routes makes sense given how the suburbs are laid out.

Right, but what I'm saying is that the suburbs were laid out incorrectly, and that has to be changed.

First, every arterial road has a bus route similar to Toronto (88 Bathurst, 91 Bayview, 90 Leslie, etc). Most of the weird convoluted local services are just the ones that travel within the small local streets in between the grid streets, and they convoluted and spaghetti like simply because that's how those areas area laid out.

Once again, I'm saying change that. Build additional grid streets. I'm a walking/cycling/transit person, over roads (though I drive and own a car). Grid streets benefit everyone.

Faster and more efficient no matter your mode of travel.

Also allows for intensification, as you necessarily expropriate properties for the new grid streets.

Unlike Toronto where you can find more or less straight streets within the midblock of the grid that you can run more local community bus services like the Cummer and Willowdale busses, in York Region you have to deal with... this:

View attachment 346879
What's shown in Black is the route that the 83 Trench takes here.

What I would do:

 

[chasedp]

Those local bus routes also twist and turn so they can serve as many people as possible in those communities. Especially ones like 3 and 40. Thing is most of those routes go through streets filled with car-filled driveways. They ain't giving up their cars to take that.

 

[cplchanb]

Those local bus routes also twist and turn so they can serve as many people as possible in those communities. Especially ones like 3 and 40. Thing is most of those routes go through streets filled with car-filled driveways. They ain't giving up their cars to take that.

guys i think weve sidetracked enough. This thread is for rapidway construction, not service schedules.. Theres a service thread somewhere in the forum that can be bumped for that

 

[chasedp]

guys i think weve sidetracked enough. This thread is for rapidway construction, not service schedules.. Theres a service thread somewhere in the forum that can be bumped for that

Sorry boss I was just pointing that out. Actually checking it out now that service thread hasn't had a post in almost a year. It might be time to combine the two threads into one general YRT talk thread.

 

[nfitz]

Sorry boss I was just pointing that out. Actually checking it out now that service thread hasn't had a post in almost a year. It might be time to combine the two threads into one general YRT talk thread.

I'd prefer not - I have little interest in the service thread. But am interested in construction.

A year isn't long - we just had the first post in 7 years on the replacement Dufferin bridges - and it's all entirely on-topic and appropriate.

 

[ARG1]

Right, but what I'm saying is that the suburbs were laid out incorrectly, and that has to be changed.



Once again, I'm saying change that. Build additional grid streets. I'm a walking/cycling/transit person, over roads (though I drive and own a car). Grid streets benefit everyone.

Faster and more efficient no matter your mode of travel.

Also allows for intensification, as you necessarily expropriate properties for the new grid streets.



What I would do:

View attachment 346887

So demolish a ton of housing? People live in these places and suggesting the demolition of several homes just to have slightly less curvy bus routes sounds like a political disaster ready to happen. We have the suburbs, we're stuck with them, we can't change them anymore.

 

[TRONto]

So demolish a ton of housing? People live in these places and suggesting the demolition of several homes just to have slightly less curvy bus routes sounds like a political disaster ready to happen. We have the suburbs, we're stuck with them, we can't change them anymore.

Not disagreeing but it's been done before (Dundas St)

 

[Northern Light]

So demolish a ton of housing? People live in these places and suggesting the demolition of several homes just to have slightly less curvy bus routes sounds like a political disaster ready to happen. We have the suburbs, we're stuck with them, we can't change them anymore.

Not only has this been done before, as outlined above; and its one of many examples........

But the suggestion that these yellow-belt, transit-unfriendly neighbourhoods are immutable forever is to condemn them to be inconsistent with our need for more housing, more accessibility, more/better transit etc.

The evidence of history suggests nothing is immutable ( much as somethings probably should be); but among those things I would suggest be preserved, even at great cost, would not be badly designed suburbs or windy transit routes.
The question, to me, is not whether this will change, but how and when.

****

I would add, my particular suggestions were crafted to cause the least disruption possible (the vast majority of homes would not be demolished/redeveloped); only those necessary to creation functional/sustainable communities.

 

[dad pad]

I think autonomous vehicles that drop off users to the nearest route on the grid would make more sense in my opinion. This could also work for office parks and industrial areas.

 

[TRONto]

I think autonomous vehicles that drop off users to the nearest route on the grid would make more sense in my opinion. This could also work for office parks and industrial areas.

Awesome profile picture

 

[ARG1]

I think autonomous vehicles that drop off users to the nearest route on the grid would make more sense in my opinion. This could also work for office parks and industrial areas.

While I do think autonomous vehicles - especially Level 5 automation is a complete pipe dream, I do partially agree. What I think we can expect more of is a Vancouver styled community shuttle system or some form of subsidized Uber model, where you a few shuttles operating in these blocks with the sole goal of getting people to the nearest streets in order to feed into local routes or Viva routes. Busses like the 83 Trench on paper do this really well, except they only arrive every 30 minutes so they're not particularly useful (not to mention you have busses every 30 minutes feeding into a bus route that also probably only runs every 30 minutes).

 

[dad pad]

While I do think autonomous vehicles - especially Level 5 automation is a complete pipe dream, I do partially agree. What I think we can expect more of is a Vancouver styled community shuttle system or some form of subsidized Uber model, where you a few shuttles operating in these blocks with the sole goal of getting people to the nearest streets in order to feed into local routes or Viva routes. Busses like the 83 Trench on paper do this really well, except they only arrive every 30 minutes so they're not particularly useful (not to mention you have busses every 30 minutes feeding into a bus route that also probably only runs every 30 minutes).

While there have been very well publicized issues with edge cases I think autonomous vehicles would be a good fit for low traffic areas like subdivisions. I envision the vehicles driving far below the speed limit and being clearly marked as being driverless. As you pointed out though this could already be done but the issue is that, as far I can tell, the cost of labour would make it prohibitive.