Tngrn
New Member
Forever 21, Garage, Justice, and LUSH are coming soon to Yorkdale according to their website.
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picard102
Senior Member
LUSH? Ugh, I hate the smell of that store.
pw20
Active Member
Oxford is already pre-leasing another expansion on the west side that will create a new north/south wing that connects with the mall at Shoppers/ East/West via Sears is. They would like Saks to be a major tenant, but are creating a fair bit of space for other retailers as the new wing will be quite large.
prosperegal
Senior Member
With Jacob closing up, would Yorkdale FINALLY be getting a guys' J.Crew store, you think?
ILuvTO
Active Member
Would HBC put a Saks at Yorkdale considering there will already be locations at TEC and Sherway? If Yorkdale got a location as well then Toronto (I believe) would be the only city in NA with three Saks'.
pw20
Active Member
I know the folks at Oxford would like to see a Saks at Yorkdale; but it seems like HBC is playing footsie with Cadillac Fairview when it comes to the Saks role-out.
As a total fly on the wall observer - I don't really understand Richard Baker & Co's strategy with Canada and I wonder if they aren't as bullish on the market after seeing Target fail miserably. As you note very few cities have more than one Saks - and in the States Saks has been retreating somewhat, consolidating itself in key markets and key stores. This was before the HBC purchase. While Toronto is certainly wealthy and can afford more luxury department stores, I do not believe it can have a higher penetration of luxury department stores than Boston, New York, Los Angeles, Chicago or other major American markets. My contact who mentioned to me about the West Yorkdale redevelopment even opined that having four Holt Renfrew (should Holts keep Sherway) would be tough for the market to sustain. Even with three Holt Renfrew's - their future gross square feet in the Toronto market will be significantly more than Holt Renfrew had two or three years ago (the Yorkdale store has tripled in size and the proposed Square One store will be like four times the size of the current Holts at Sherway). With Holt Renfrew's expansion, Harry Rosen's expansion, Nordstrom AND at least 2 Saks there is a GIANT influx of luxury retail square feet into one market.
I do know however that the reason HBC didn't open Saks at yonge and bloor was the cost - the actual costs of turning that location into a department store of any repute is just too much.
As a total fly on the wall observer - I don't really understand Richard Baker & Co's strategy with Canada and I wonder if they aren't as bullish on the market after seeing Target fail miserably. As you note very few cities have more than one Saks - and in the States Saks has been retreating somewhat, consolidating itself in key markets and key stores. This was before the HBC purchase. While Toronto is certainly wealthy and can afford more luxury department stores, I do not believe it can have a higher penetration of luxury department stores than Boston, New York, Los Angeles, Chicago or other major American markets. My contact who mentioned to me about the West Yorkdale redevelopment even opined that having four Holt Renfrew (should Holts keep Sherway) would be tough for the market to sustain. Even with three Holt Renfrew's - their future gross square feet in the Toronto market will be significantly more than Holt Renfrew had two or three years ago (the Yorkdale store has tripled in size and the proposed Square One store will be like four times the size of the current Holts at Sherway). With Holt Renfrew's expansion, Harry Rosen's expansion, Nordstrom AND at least 2 Saks there is a GIANT influx of luxury retail square feet into one market.
I do know however that the reason HBC didn't open Saks at yonge and bloor was the cost - the actual costs of turning that location into a department store of any repute is just too much.
prosperegal
Senior Member
Is it possible that they'll open an Off 5th at Yorkdale rather than a full out Saks? Chicago and New York both have a few Off 5ths within an hour or so drive from the main store.
mustangjay
New Member
True but American cities also have a greater number of luxury department stores as a whole. Boston (a smaller city than Toronto) for example has Neiman Marcus, Saks Fifth Avenue, Barneys, Lord & Taylor, Bloomingdales, AND 6 Nordstrom locations around the region! The GTA is a significantly larger, wealthier region so to say the luxury market will be oversaturated between Holt's Saks, and Nordstrom's is unlikely. It's also unlikely that Saks will open a third store at Yorkdale. What's troubling is that HBC opted to open a Saks location in the Eaton Centre instead of on Bloor Street...this may turn out to be a costly miscalculation as there's no indication that affluent shoppers visit the Eaton Centre with any great frequency. The owners of Harry Rosen put it best when they said there's a difference in what they can sell in their EC store verses their store on Bloor. Frankly, how many people who shop in that mall can afford to drop two or three grand in a single visit? HBC should have stuck to their original plan of having Saks in Sherway and a flagship store on Bloor Street; the old Sears space at Yorkdale is said to be in plans for reconfiguration for new stores.
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pw20
Active Member
We spoke about this at length in the Yorkville thread.
1) Greater Boston is not much smaller than the GTA from a population stand point (I think its 4.5M versus Toronto's 5.5M); Boston also serves as a catchment area from a retail perspective for much of New England, which has a population of 14M, versus Ontario's 11M (which is more geographically spread out)
2) Traditionally American's have spent much more on a per capita basis than Canadian's. This has changed since the 2008 recession, but consumer disposable spending has generally been lower in Canada versus the US.
3) Wealth is a tricky thing to measure, but generally American's pay lower taxes and have higher salaries at the top 1%... so while Toronto may be "wealthier" than Boston (which I'm not sure I buy) there may be more disposable dollars at the top 1%
I DO think there is significant pent up demand for luxury retail in Toronto - which is why we're seeing an "explosion" of luxury retail opening in Toronto - but we're going from zero to hero in five years. Holt Renfrew for example used to have:
1) Downtown - 179,000 square feet, to be rebuilt plus the 14,000 mens store
2) Yorkdale - from 60,000 square feet to 120,000
3) Sherway - 33,000 (100,000)
4) Square One - 120,000
On top of that we're getting - Sherway (138,000), Yonge Street (213,000) and Yorkdale (188,000) of Nordstrom; and Saks Sherway (130,000) and Queen Street (150,000)
That's going from 272,000 to 433,000 for Holts (excluding Bloor expansion + Sherway) + 539,000 of Nordstrom + 280,000 of Saks.
That is going from 272k of square footage of luxury department store to over 1.2M. That's 6x. Is there 6x the luxury consumer in Toronto vis-a-vis 5 years ago?
As I said - the Saks downtown was purely driven by the high cost of renovating the Yonge and Bloor store... Richard Baker, remember, is a real estate guy first and a retailer second.
Also I think Oxford would rather die than put an HR2 in at Yorkdale - and a bigger question - what is happening with HR2?!!
taal
Senior Member
So any idea what will happen with the Bay on Bloor ... does anyone have a list of sale per square foot by the various Bay locations, I'd be curious where this Bay stacks ups.
pw20
Active Member
I don't think they'd release that information.
One thought I had was to create a vertical there with a smaller department store on the upper two levels and charge market rents on the first two floors - something like WaterTower Place or the San Francisco Centre. I just don't know if Brookfiled or anyone really has the appetite. Its really just the wrong building for today's retail needs and would require a complete gut/rebuild.
Things may change when Oxford releases their newer/finalized plans for Cumberland Terrace which will include a lot of great retail space perhaps creating more of a luxury zone in the eastern stretch of Bloor - there may be a stronger argument for redevelopment. I don't entirely know. From Brookfield's perspective - they have a tenant, and a food court that is pretty well utilized - if it ain't broke don't fix it or unless they feel the need to renovate to meet market expectations.
taal
Senior Member
I don't think they'd release that information.
One thought I had was to create a vertical there with a smaller department store on the upper two levels and charge market rents on the first two floors - something like WaterTower Place or the San Francisco Centre. I just don't know if Brookfiled or anyone really has the appetite. Its really just the wrong building for today's retail needs and would require a complete gut/rebuild.
Things may change when Oxford releases their newer/finalized plans for Cumberland Terrace which will include a lot of great retail space perhaps creating more of a luxury zone in the eastern stretch of Bloor - there may be a stronger argument for redevelopment. I don't entirely know. From Brookfield's perspective - they have a tenant, and a food court that is pretty well utilized - if it ain't broke don't fix it or unless they feel the need to renovate to meet market expectations.
Actually that's exactly why I asked, I'm curious if this location does well, or not (I always thought it was poor performing location?) if it does well, no reason at all to do much about it.
Retail-Insider
Active Member
The Yonge & Bloor Hudson's Bay does a bit over $50 mill/yr according to one of its managers. The Queen Street flagship does more than 4x that amount.
Holt's Bloor Street store has been known to do about $150 million though that may have changed in the past couple of years. Is there anyone (from Morguard?) who can confirm?
ILuvTO
Active Member
One can only wonder what a Saks reno would have done for the stores sales as well as overall area.
taal
Senior Member
In the context of regular Bay stores, how is 50 mil a year ? Average ? I'm just trying to think, given the rents they pay is it worth while to keep the store ?