York Region Transit: Viva service thread

[ShonTron]

I've just learned that with nearly 20,000 boardings a day, Brampton's Queen Street corridor (1/501/501A) has surpassed York Region's Yonge Street Corridor (Blue/98/99) in 2012.

20,000 would place it within the mid range of major TTC bus routes - similar to the 45/45E Kipling bus or the 196 York U Rocket.

Only Mississauga's Hurontario corridor has higher ridership in the 905 (19/103).

 

[doady]

The Dundas corridor (1/201) had 18,720 boardings per weekday in 2008. I wouldn't be surprised if it was over 20,000 now too.

The Yonge corridor actually has over 21,000 boardings though, but it's much longer.

 

[Electrify]

Well I went to the open house at Richmond Hill Centre today about the new service plan. I don't believe I was rude, but I definitely let them know about my dissatisfaction about the upcoming cuts. Most of what they said in defence was pure positioning, however they had one decent argument: That they have people complaining that there are too many empty buses running around wasting tax dollars, and that as the routes fill up, they will look at operating more service.

I still disagree with this position though. I gave the example that if I want to go to Wal-Mart or Vaughan Mills, I won't usually consider taking the bus and just drive because the connecting routes are too infrequent. Unfortunately the response was general positioning. The only way we will get better transit in York Region is if gas prices reach a point that the middle class cannot afford to drive. Until that happens, transit appears to be nothing more than a social service with premium city fares.

On the plus side, the new Viva Green routing looks very nice, and not only looks to help control Yonge St congestion during the construction, but will probably help to bring more riders to the Sheppard line. I am optimistic that it will become a full time route within a few years of its introduction. And they are looking at improving parallel service to Yonge during the busway construction.

Oh, and they took an awesome pic of me which will probably be used for their promotional materials

 

[xtremesniper]

Well I went to the open house at Richmond Hill Centre today about the new service plan. I don't believe I was rude, but I definitely let them know about my dissatisfaction about the upcoming cuts. Most of what they said in defence was pure positioning, however they had one decent argument: That they have people complaining that there are too many empty buses running around wasting tax dollars, and that as the routes fill up, they will look at operating more service.

I still disagree with this position though. I gave the example that if I want to go to Wal-Mart or Vaughan Mills, I won't usually consider taking the bus and just drive because the connecting routes are too infrequent. Unfortunately the response was general positioning. The only way we will get better transit in York Region is if gas prices reach a point that the middle class cannot afford to drive. Until that happens, transit appears to be nothing more than a social service with premium city fares.

On the plus side, the new Viva Green routing looks very nice, and not only looks to help control Yonge St congestion during the construction, but will probably help to bring more riders to the Sheppard line. I am optimistic that it will become a full time route within a few years of its introduction. And they are looking at improving parallel service to Yonge during the busway construction.

Oh, and they took an awesome pic of me which will probably be used for their promotional materials

That's cool to hear about the green line. I kind of wish I was able to go to the event too but I had to be at work. More transit advocates need to attend these things because I find the anti transit folk find more ways of showing up to these things and skewing the opinions in their favor or just generally pissing people off and taking the conversation off topic.

 

[Electrify]

That's cool to hear about the green line. I kind of wish I was able to go to the event too but I had to be at work. More transit advocates need to attend these things because I find the anti transit folk find more ways of showing up to these things and skewing the opinions in their favor or just generally pissing people off and taking the conversation off topic.

Every time someone brings up St. Clair I just want to punch them in the face...

On a related note, I was reading that those opposed to the Centre/Bathurst bus lanes are suggesting that the money could be used towards the Yonge subway extension. Doing the math in my head, I estimate that it won't be completed until about 2045 at the earliest! This assumes that EAs and planning for the downtown relief line start in the next couple of years, begins construction in 2020, finishes in 2030, another 5 years of planning and design for the Yonge extension, begins construction in 2035, and takes 10 years to finish.

Of course, all day GO service is to start in the next few years on the Richmond Hill line apparently, which could kill the need for a Yonge north extension altogether...

 

[canarob]

Like, they built a transitway along Enterprise Blvd, and now they want to take VIVA Purple buses off the transitway? I just think it's getting ridiculous now.

Did I miss something?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Every time someone brings up St. Clair I just want to punch them in the face...

On a related note, I was reading that those opposed to the Centre/Bathurst bus lanes are suggesting that the money could be used towards the Yonge subway extension. Doing the math in my head, I estimate that it won't be completed until about 2045 at the earliest! This assumes that EAs and planning for the downtown relief line start in the next couple of years, begins construction in 2020, finishes in 2030, another 5 years of planning and design for the Yonge extension, begins construction in 2035, and takes 10 years to finish.

Of course, all day GO service is to start in the next few years on the Richmond Hill line apparently, which could kill the need for a Yonge north extension altogether...

1) Wow - I find it an amazingly defeatist attitude for the transit people to be telling you their strategy is based entirely (or at least largely) on gas prices driving people to alternatives. That's a huge recipe for failure.

2) The GO service won't (or at least shouldn't) kill the TTC extension since a) they serve different needs and b) the development plans in the area are directly contingent on the subway. If it was only the government involved that would be one thing, but luckily there are rich, influential developers with something at stake too

3) I think it's highly unlikely that the extension waits until after the DRL. York Region just has too much ammo, with the EA already complete and Toronto's (conditional) approval of the project. They should either do the lines simultaneously or roll from Yonge directly into DRL. I totally understand the capacity needs for the DRL but if they don't get rolling on the subway before then, the province will have shot its growth plan in the head. i.e. They're not going to hit 2031 targets in their urban centres if they don't deliver transit til 2045. The fact that we're so far behind on transit planning is pathetic but you have to play the hand you're dealt and it's not York Region or Metrolinx's fault that Toronto didn't start talking about the DRL until 2 years after the Yonge EA was finished. Despite your math, it could still be open around 2021, if that's what they want to do.

 

[Electrify]

1) Wow - I find it an amazingly defeatist attitude for the transit people to be telling you their strategy is based entirely (or at least largely) on gas prices driving people to alternatives. That's a huge recipe for failure.

2) The GO service won't (or at least shouldn't) kill the TTC extension since a) they serve different needs and b) the development plans in the area are directly contingent on the subway. If it was only the government involved that would be one thing, but luckily there are rich, influential developers with something at stake too

3) I think it's highly unlikely that the extension waits until after the DRL. York Region just has too much ammo, with the EA already complete and Toronto's (conditional) approval of the project. They should either do the lines simultaneously or roll from Yonge directly into DRL. I totally understand the capacity needs for the DRL but if they don't get rolling on the subway before then, the province will have shot its growth plan in the head. i.e. They're not going to hit 2031 targets in their urban centres if they don't deliver transit til 2045. The fact that we're so far behind on transit planning is pathetic but you have to play the hand you're dealt and it's not York Region or Metrolinx's fault that Toronto didn't start talking about the DRL until 2 years after the Yonge EA was finished. Despite your math, it could still be open around 2021, if that's what they want to do.

1. Let me clarify. They said that they won't increase the frequency until the demand is there. I'm saying that is unlikely to happen until it becomes too cost prohibitive for the majority to drive, at least when transit operates so infrequently even on major corridors in a suburban space where roads and parking are plentiful. Even driving through crippling traffic congestion is arguably more appealing than waiting 30 minutes for a bus at peak times.

2. I hope they both go through, but something to keep in mind is that travel times will be about equal for the two routes. It is about 22km between Yonge and 7 and Union Station. At 30km/h average, total travel will be 44 minutes. Because the GO train takes an indirect route, it takes 40 minutes from Langstaff, and if they add new stops to connect to the DRL or ECLRT, that time advantage will shrink even further. Granted, the GO train is a far more pleasant ride to be on for more than 30 minutes compared to the subway, but we in Toronto seem to take our 60+ minute transit commutes in stride.

3. I'll admit I didn't factor in constructing both at the same time, but even then 2021 is WAY too optimistic for either route to be completed! Perhaps if the DRL is no longer considered a requirement, it could be completed by then, but construction would have to start in the next 3 years and so far there is no funding in place.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I'm thinking more along the lines of 2024 opening for the DRL currently.

 

[TOareaFan]

1. Let me clarify. They said that they won't increase the frequency until the demand is there. I'm saying that is unlikely to happen until it becomes too cost prohibitive for the majority to drive, at least when transit operates so infrequently even on major corridors in a suburban space where roads and parking are plentiful. Even driving through crippling traffic congestion is arguably more appealing than waiting 30 minutes for a bus at peak times.

This is a huge factor. Whether conciously or not, commuters in the suburbs make that decision of waiting for/aiming towards the next bus/train or driving and the distance that can be covered by driving rather than waiting is a factor in the decision.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

2. I hope they both go through, but something to keep in mind is that travel times will be about equal for the two routes. It is about 22km between Yonge and 7 and Union Station. At 30km/h average, total travel will be 44 minutes. Because the GO train takes an indirect route, it takes 40 minutes from Langstaff, and if they add new stops to connect to the DRL or ECLRT, that time advantage will shrink even further. Granted, the GO train is a far more pleasant ride to be on for more than 30 minutes compared to the subway, but we in Toronto seem to take our 60+ minute transit commutes in stride.

Ah, but I think this is a fundamental error people keep making: The travel times may be about the same to UNION STATION but not everyone is going to/from Union Station. It will be faster for someone who works at Bloor, but now has to backtrack, to take the subway. And it becomes an option for someone who works at Yonge/Eglinton for whom GO is entirely useless.

We've been thinking, for a long time, that the point of transit is to get people in and out of Union Station but people are going to and from a lot more destinations these days. That's what I meant by saying they serve different needs.

The planners who think that the RH/Langstaff hub will become "Union Station North" are arguably being overly ambitious. But I do think we need to start thinking more broadly than in terms of building more and more to facilitate people getting in and out of downtown; it's not the only centre anymore.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Ah, but I think this is a fundamental error people keep making: The travel times may be about the same to UNION STATION but not everyone is going to/from Union Station. It will be faster for someone who works at Bloor, but now has to backtrack, to take the subway. And it becomes an option for someone who works at Yonge/Eglinton for whom GO is entirely useless.

We've been thinking, for a long time, that the point of transit is to get people in and out of Union Station but people are going to and from a lot more destinations these days. That's what I meant by saying they serve different needs.

The planners who think that the RH/Langstaff hub will become "Union Station North" are arguably being overly ambitious. But I do think we need to start thinking more broadly than in terms of building more and more to facilitate people getting in and out of downtown; it's not the only centre anymore.

What's wrong with a GO train to GO station on Eglinton, transfer to Eglinton crosstown LRT to Yonge and Eglinton? Would travel times be comparable to the current bus to Finch and subway, or all subway from RHC route?

Just how many people make that trip today? In 2031?

 

[doady]

What's wrong with a GO train to GO station on Eglinton, transfer to Eglinton crosstown LRT to Yonge and Eglinton? Would travel times be comparable to the current bus to Finch and subway, or all subway from RHC route?

The current Yonge bus is required to get to Langstaff GO as well.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

What's wrong with a GO train to GO station on Eglinton, transfer to Eglinton crosstown LRT to Yonge and Eglinton? Would travel times be comparable to the current bus to Finch and subway, or all subway from RHC route?

Just how many people make that trip today? In 2031?

So...your solution for someone from RH who wants to get to Yonge/Eg is to drive to Yonge/7, swing all the way over to, where- Leslie/Eglinton? At a new stop? That's built for no cost? And then come all the way back to Yonge? So now, his trip is ridiculously time consuming and out of the way, AND you've slowed down the GO train also. Not sure how that fits with Metrolinx's dream of a seamless system that helps people get where they need to go. And what if they want to go to Lawrence? Or College? Or Sheppard? Or anywhere other than the single station I happened to name before?

You want transit to start where people live and end where they want to go, it seems to me. So once you've established the Finch parking lot is stuffed full with cars from Vaughan and Richmond Hill (and especially once you know there is a growth centre 5 km away, right up the street), it doesn't seem a huge logical leap to say "maybe the subway should start up there, instead of down here." I know there are $ and other constraints but, all things being equal, seems a no brainer to me.

I'm sure Viva and TTC have 2031 projections I'm too lazy to look up but it certainly seems obvious to me there will be lots of "905ers" taking the subway to plenty of destinations other than Union Station. Again, that's kind of the point of having a multi-modal system in an increasingly transit-oriented multi-nodal region. Creating a new stop on the commuter rail system in the middle of nowhere that exists just so suburbanites can to midtown just doesn't.

 

[Electrify]

Ah, but I think this is a fundamental error people keep making: The travel times may be about the same to UNION STATION but not everyone is going to/from Union Station. It will be faster for someone who works at Bloor, but now has to backtrack, to take the subway. And it becomes an option for someone who works at Yonge/Eglinton for whom GO is entirely useless.

We've been thinking, for a long time, that the point of transit is to get people in and out of Union Station but people are going to and from a lot more destinations these days. That's what I meant by saying they serve different needs.

The planners who think that the RH/Langstaff hub will become "Union Station North" are arguably being overly ambitious. But I do think we need to start thinking more broadly than in terms of building more and more to facilitate people getting in and out of downtown; it's not the only centre anymore.

Thing is, if they both take the same amount of time to get to Union, what becomes the point of the GO train?

The current Yonge bus is required to get to Langstaff GO as well.

Actually there now is a bridge to get across to the GO platform from RHC. The 407 GO buses also now stop at RHC, leaving only the Richmond Hill-Union Station bus which operates on Langstaff Rd.