York Region Transit: Viva service thread

[Electrify]

More intelligent discourse regarding the VIVA Rapidways. Apparently Rapidways belong on Highways where there are sooo many people waiting to board the vehicles.

Link here

In defence, Thornhill is poorly covered by the Viva Purple. Yes it goes through, but it also doesn't stop very much while going through. Besides the Promenade Mall and Atkinson, that's it. Dufferin is located at the edge of Thornhill, and most who use it transfer to and from the Dufferin bus or endure very long walks.

As it stands, the Thornhill detour is about force feeding the mall, not about getting people to and from their destinations efficiently.

 

[Transportfan]

Dufferin is located at the edge of Thornhill, and most who use it transfer to and from the Dufferin bus or endure very long walks.

Dufferin is the edge of Thornhill, but Thornhill is just a neighborhood, so Dufferin being the edge of it is no more significant than a street in 416 being at the edge of a neighborhood.

 

[ShonTron]

This here is Thornhill's fight. They screwed themselves and the central and northern parts of the region by lobbying against bus lanes on Yonge south of 7. So if they want to screw themselves again by moving the lanes to Highway 7, though this time benefiting those in the central and eastern parts, more power to them.

That said, perhaps I should start an information campaign as to why bus lanes along Yonge through Richmond Hill are a good idea. Give me a leg up for when the opposition against them starts...

Not having bus lanes on south Yonge was because, supposedly, one day there would be a subway there. If York Region built bus lanes there it might just hurt their case for a Yonge North subway extension, even though this is where dedicated bus lanes makes the most sense. Meanwhile, YRT cuts its service levels again and again, with an awful base service outside the Blue and Purple corridors that should be a local shame.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

In defence, Thornhill is poorly covered by the Viva Purple. Yes it goes through, but it also doesn't stop very much while going through. Besides the Promenade Mall and Atkinson, that's it. Dufferin is located at the edge of Thornhill, and most who use it transfer to and from the Dufferin bus or endure very long walks.

As it stands, the Thornhill detour is about force feeding the mall, not about getting people to and from their destinations efficiently.

One mans force feeding is another's serving a trip generator. Promenade still has a bus terminal with connections to at least a handful of routes, I think it's important to make that connection. Furthermore there is very, very little along Hwy 7 between Bathurst and Centre: Literally nothing more than a smattering of low density industrial buildings, the 7/407 corridor, and the Hydro corridor. Even with poor stop spacing there are still more riders to be served along Bathurst/Centre than there ever will be along the bypassed stretch of 7.

I suppose an alternative would be to run along Langstaff and then down Keele to York U, or to build a dedicated ROW through the Hydro corridor but still, the bus needs to go where the passengers are or no one will ride the route.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Not having bus lanes on south Yonge was because, supposedly, one day there would be a subway there. If York Region built bus lanes there it might just hurt their case for a Yonge North subway extension, even though this is where dedicated bus lanes makes the most sense. Meanwhile, YRT cuts its service levels again and again, with an awful base service outside the Blue and Purple corridors that should be a local shame.

I've said this on other threads too but the timing of that bus lane thing is significant (and certainly not just because, as someone said, Thornhill "lobbied against" them.) I'm too lazy to go get it but you can go to the June 2007 York Region council agenda and see it was literally the same week they were going to do the bus lane expropriations that the Move2020 plan was announced; it shows how little they knew it was coming.

So, they decided to put them on hold and get moving on the subway. In that context it was the smart move: no point building lanes (and spending money) when they're getting torn up in a few years. Now that the subway is in limbo, the correctness of the decision isn't as clear but everyone was quite optimistic at the time.

FWIW, I think the whole Centre Street protest now is a joke. The EA was done years ago and if there is one street in YR that needs a kick in the pants, it's that street. I know there is residential in behind but the residents comparing it to St. Clair are way, way, out to lunch. Last I checked, St. Clair wasn't lined by abandoned bungalows with huge setbacks. Going off Hwy 7 was always the plan and it doesn't make sense to skip the Promenade terminal. I can understand the idea of having a second "express" route that stays on the highway but the idea of all buses staying on the highway doesn't make sense for a local route.

 

[gweed123]

I can understand the idea of having a second "express" route that stays on the highway but the idea of all buses staying on the highway doesn't make sense for a local route.

Isn't the 407 Transitway going to cover that 'express route' function? Yes, it's western terminus is 1 subway stop further south of where the VIVA Highway 7 terminus will be, but it's still running more or less the same route, just with fewer stops. Still hitting the Spadina line, still hitting RHC, still hitting Unionville. If people really want an express trip across central York Region, THAT's their best bet, not the Highway 7 VIVA route.

 

[Electrify]

I assume no one saw my suggestion to run the longer Markham branch across 7, and the shorter Richmond Hill one across Centre...

 

[smallspy]

If you ever did a survey of people who use Viva Purple, you will find that the VAST majority use it to go between Richmond Hill and York University.

As someone who until recently saw the route every day and used to use it weekly, I would suggest that it is fair to say that the majority would travel that full distance, but a very healthy percentage - maybe as high as a quarter of the ridership on that section - would be headed to Promenade Terminal.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Electrify]

Dufferin is the edge of Thornhill, but Thornhill is just a neighborhood, so Dufferin being the edge of it is no more significant than a street in 416 being at the edge of a neighborhood.

It is more than just being at the edge of a neighbourhood, it is at the edge of an urban area. North and west of Dufferin it is essentially a greenbelt surrounding the 407 and the hydro corridor. The only thing west of Dufferin within walking distance is a McDonald's a half mile away.

To the north there is pretty much nothing for the first quarter mile, before you get to a side street into a neighbourhood. To the south it isn't quite as bad, only about an eighth of a mile before you reach a walkway into a subdivision.

Meanwhile the distance between the Promenade and Dufferin is about a mile, with no BRT service whatsoever. While from the intersecting midway point, Vaughan Blvd/Carl Tennsen St is about a 10 minute walk in either direction to a Viva stop, the neighbourhoods along these streets are not within reasonable walking distance.

So to conclude, it appears that the detour is designed to service the Promenade mall first, and the Thornhill district second.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I assume no one saw my suggestion to run the longer Markham branch across 7, and the shorter Richmond Hill one across Centre...

No, I did! I basically agreed, there's something to be said for having a split purple where some of the buses go to Promenade but not all of them.

I agree with Gweed123 also, that 407 T-way will be a true regional express whereas viva is designed to be a local-express. I believe the T-way will actually have a stop at 407/Bathurst and then I forget if it has another one before the Concord GO...it was a while ago. That said, it won't open until 2023 (at best). What's the timetable for Centre Street? About five years before that? Viva could certainly try running some "local" and some "express" buses until the T-way opens...I'm basically assuming they know their own ridership numbers and how many people transfer at Promenade. Clearly that's the tipping point for all this. If it wasn't there, there would be no reason to pick up local traffic on that stretch. (Though, that said, the idea is that there will be intensification along that stretch which the Viva route will inspire, and then serve.)

 

[Rainforest]

Perhaps one more VIVA stop needs to be added, at Centre / Carl Tennsen, to make the service more useful for Thornhill?

Regarding the split service proposal: it can work during the peak time, but will create a problem off-peak. They will have to either run both branches off-peak when both will be very lightly used, or make one of the branches peak-only.

 

[gweed123]

Perhaps one more VIVA stop needs to be added, at Centre / Carl Tennsen, to make the service more useful for Thornhill?

Regarding the split service proposal: it can work during the peak time, but will create a problem off-peak. They will have to either run both branches off-peak when both will be very lightly used, or make one of the branches peak-only.

I think peak-only would be a good temporary solution until the 407 Transitway is up and running. Would also be a good indication of how well used the Transitway is actually going to be.

 

[taal]

Anyone of recent ridership figures for the various Viva routes ?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Anyone of recent ridership figures for the various Viva routes ?

All the info is here...

 

[taal]

All the info is here...

Thanks !

I've always found the blue ridership figures low ... what I mean is (its around 17-20K) but the route feels like its busier ! There are many TTC routes with 17/20K and I could swear viva blue actually feels busier then these comparable TTC routes.

I'm guessing the reason here is Viva blue has high rush hour ridership but lower ridership at other times.


Purple / Pink are still surprisingly low ! Particularly Viva purple / pink east (along with the #1 bus) ... there is a ton of employment along Hi-way 7, from roughly Bathurst / Leslie all the way to Warden ... a lot of these businesses are just off Hi-way 7, maybe a 5/10min walk max, though the walk isn't much fun for a lot of these places (as they're not directly on 7).

I'm afraid the rapid way isn't going to make much of a difference here ... an attitude adjustment is required ... it would be nice for businesses to offer transit incentives (e.g. free YRT montly passes).

I work for a large company along this stretch, and unfortunately the only people who really take transit is our interns ; - ) ... though we have a lot of them.