York Region Transit: Viva service thread

[accura407]

Bang on. I definitely agree with routing the 77 through Woodbridge Ave.
So you're saying, have the 77 turn left at Martin Grove, then right onto Woodbridge Ave, then back down to Highway 7 Via Islington?

Also -- I've always wondered if the YRT would consider nixing the TTC contracts and running their own buses on Pine Valley, Weston, Jane, Keele, Bathurst etc. But then you'd have to deal with transfers.

Yes exactly. It would potentially push 77 into profitable territory because there is a lot of density along that corridor and yet no viable bus route because all the attention is given to Hwy 7 just south of it.

I would only eliminate it case by case. Islington's 37D is such a useless route...i never see anybody on that. Cut it. Jane could go too because 20 is a high ridership route. But Keele, Weston, and Dufferin can stay because they all are logical routes with good ridership numbers...

I can't comment on the east end TTC contracts but i think Victoria Park could also go as well...

@BMO Yup it is possible but then again the delays on southbound Islington to turn left onto Highway 7 would probably offset the benefits...regardless of the extra time it still would be positive for that corridor because they keep building condo's and yet transit is so poor...

 

[Electrify]

A few things:

1. GAAAHA! Almost all of those public input dates I'm either working or have plans! I was going to go to the last round, but had a stomach virus on my day off.

2. I like the look of the new website, but despite what it says on the press release, there doesn't seem to be a mobile site. At least when I go to yrt.ca on my cell, it loads the standard website. This wouldn't be a big deal, but the new site is very resource intensive for a cell so it makes my phone quite warm and drains its battery.

3. I could see the 77 route going through downtown Woodbridge, but I would make that area the end of its route and not bring it back down to Highway 7 to continue west. This would mean people who need to go further west would be forced to transfer at Islington on to Viva and Zum rather than have to endure a detour into Woodbridge.

In fact, I don't think it is a bad idea to cut the Viva Orange line altogether, and simply just have the Zum go from Brampton to Downsview. We could sell some of the Viva buses to Brampton which they could then rebrand, and then use the remainders to improve service along other Viva routes.

4. I'd think the Islington 37D would see heavy rush hour usage, since it connects residential areas in north Etobicoke to employment areas in south Vaughan. The problem with the Jane 35D is that the route terminates about a kilometer south of the big transit terminal at Vaughan Mills. To make matters worse, the 20 route sets a new low in poor scheduling, and unless the bus cruises at 15km/h under the speed limit at all times, will run significantly ahead of schedule. I think this abomination of transit planning has to do with protecting the rich Italian kids at the mall from the scary black kids from Jane and Finch.

 

[accura407]

I think this abomination of transit planning has to do with protecting the rich Italian kids at the mall from the scary black kids from Jane and Finch.

LOL! Hahahaha I couldn't agree more with you! Really, everything about Woodbridge is set up precisely in that mindset...The enormous barrier placed between Toronto and Woodbridge known as the 407 + CN + Hydro Corridor...by the time someone can actually cross all 3 of those corridors your in another city all together...couple that with the TTC fare zone at Steeles and the ZERO residential areas south of the "mega-barrier" and what you get is an invisible "Berlin-Wall" effect...

I used to work at the Wal-Mart at Hwy 7 & Jane and I know for a fact that the vast majority of workers at that store were from the Jane & Finch Area so maybe thats the only reason they even run that bus up that far...?

With the upcoming Vaughan Corporate Centre development, I am sure that this type of "fortified separation" planning will end and the two cities will be a bit more interconnected...

 

[xtremesniper]

Well frankly, the Victoria Park route is very useful and goes through some areas that have good potential for high ridership (relative to other suburban routes) but I think what really kills it is:

1. Double-fare. No one wants to pay it if they can avoid it, thus killing the usefulness of the route north of Steeles where YRT actually cares about it.

2. Victoria Park doesn't really exist north of Steeles. It goes to Denison and then terminates. Most people won't logically understand where the Vic Park bus goes after Steeles without analyzing maps.

3. Woodbine is mostly industrial until Highway 7 where it becomes more residential. Ridership in that area will only exist during peak hours. And only now is the residential area near Major Mackenzie getting built-up, which may lead to some increase in ridership in the coming months/years.

I still firmly believe that the double-fare is exactly what is prohibiting people from taking transit when they can. I, for one, could take the Vic Park bus to get to work but I don't because I'm not prepared to shell out insane amounts of cash for a trip that will take me much longer than via 404/DVP.

Provide discount fares when crossing the border and you will see inter-region ridership skyrocket. I'll bet anything on it.

 

[JoeParez]

Provide discount fares when crossing the border and you will see inter-region ridership skyrocket. I'll bet anything on it.

I can tell you from personal experience that even when fares were cheaper (I remember it being $5.00 for double fare) I still didn't take transit on Weston Road. That 165D bus ran every 45 minutes! (when it was delayed maybe even 75 minutes!). Improved service got me back on to transit.

But I still don't take the 165!

 

[canarob]

With Kennedy Station transforming into "Union Station East" (Eglinton line, new SRT, GO connection, etc.), I wonder if a Kennedy VIVA line becomes more viable? The ridership's not there now, but it's growing quickly and connecting Kennedy Station to Pacific Mall and Markham Centre/VIVA Purple/Pink would have obvious advantages.

 

[Electrify]

The best way to implement a better fare system between the TTC and YRT would be through Presto. Of course that asswipe Giambrone could care less about people crossing boundaries into (and out of) the Federal State of Toronto. It's sadly ironic that the TTC buses which run north of Steeles are the only buses in York Region which do not support Presto, when they would be the ones which would benefit the most from it.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I think between Finch and Steeles could be a buffer zone, like how Oak Ridges currently acts as a buffer zone. So assuming the municipalities have ironed out a fare agreement, it would be $3.25 from this zone to ride anywhere north or south. But if you are coming from north or south of the zone and would wish to cross it, it would be an extra dollar.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Looking at the subsidies for each route...It is quite stunning how much some routes are getting subsidized...

My question is...Now that 77 has lost its inter-regional role with the introduction of ZUM, why can't YRT reroute 77 through Woodbridge Ave from Islington to Kipling or Martin Grove?

A) You can automatically eliminate Route 11 (whenever i see it, its always always empty) with 77 running.
B) With the frequent service on Woodbridge Ave, you might actually see someone use it
C) Unlike Route 11, it will have a real destination (Finch Subway Station) and also connects to VIVA/ZUM
D) There is absolutely nothing along Hwy 7 between Islington & Kipling, might as well reroute a frequent conventional service into a corridor that has riders...

When you have 3 Different Styled Buses ramming through Hwy 7 at incredible frequencies (rivals some TTC routes), I do not understand why YRT can't simply reroute 77 to an area that desperately needs good service (Woodbridge Ave is quite dense) and eliminate a ultra-money loser route like 11?

There's many many other suggestions i could make but this one sticks out more than anything else to me (Being from the area)

Hey you must live close to me, haha (awkward internet moment over). I love the idea of a 77 detour though downtown Woodbridge, hell or even VIVA Orange doing so. The current connection to TTC at Steeles is inadequate and short of sending rt 11 down to Humber college and creating a hub there 11 will always suffer. If this is done you could re use the 11 bus to serve a Kipling/Langstaff route running north along Kipling, to west along Langstaff, potentially connecting the the walmart development on 27 and a future 427 transitway, and maybe as far west as into the residential development West of hwy 50. Just a thought.

Part of the problem, though, as I see it is that YRT wants to bring it's subsidy level up to almost TTC levels and there simply isn't the density outside of the Yonge corridor to support that. Either lower your subsidy expectations or maybe invest in smaller buses.

***************************************************
A few other thoughts for West Vaughan.

1. Extend the Martin Grove rt north to the community center/arena on Rutherford and Islington. It would then connect with the Rutherford bus and Islington bus.

2. As above re route 77 through downtown woodbridge with realigning of rt 11 along Kipling.

3. Eliminate the rt 10 York U bus. Viva orange is the trunk line to York U and local routes should be feeding into that, not stealing riders with an express route.

 

[accura407]

2. As above re route 77 through downtown woodbridge with realigning of rt 11 along Kipling.

3. Eliminate the rt 10 York U bus. Viva orange is the trunk line to York U and local routes should be feeding into that, not stealing riders with an express route.

DISAGREED! Route 10 is important and while the very long circuitous loop through Woodbridge can be eliminated (I say, run it 2-way along Islington north to Rutherford and follow the Napa Valley loop that 85 and 13 use) The route along Ansley Grove to York U should be kept. VIVA Orange may be great at frequency but when York U is so close by, the last thing people want is a bus transfer for such a short distance. People will might as well either drive straight to York or park at the local Fortinos and take VIVA from there...further decimating Rte 10's ridership potential...

Also i think once the 77 is rerouted through Woodbridge Ave, you can elimiated Route 11 because most of the route is a duplication of Route 13 along Islington. I dont think a route along Kipling and Langstaff will have much ridership when the Martin Grove route and the 77 take in the majority of riders...

Summary: Restructure Route 10 for better ridership, Eliminate Route 11, Reroute 77.

 

[Future Urban Planner]

The 2012 Service Plan slides are up on YRT's website:
http://www.yrt.ca/en/aboutus/resources/2012-Annual_Plan_PIC_Boards_Final_web-version.pdf


Summary of Proposed Changes:

Create new north-south link between Newmarket and Georgina (could potentially take over GO's 69 route, though this is not mentioned)

55, 55B, 58 and 58A
Discontinue 58 and 58A and replace with following:
-Rush hours: New 55B follows old 55B routing from Newmarket Bus Terminal through Leslie Valley area, and at Leslie Street, turn north and follow 58's old routing through Sharon, then back to Newmarket Bus Terminal.
-Rush hours: New 55C follows old 55B routing from Newmarket Bus Terminal through Leslie Valley area, and at Leslie Street, turn north and follow routing similar to old 58A to Mount Albert, then back to Newmarket Bus Terminal.
-Non-rush hours: New 55C follows current 55 routing from Newmarket Bus Terminal to Leslie Street, then turns north and follows old 58A routing to Mount Albert, then back to Newmarket Bus Terminal.

44, 53, 57 and 57A
Discontinue 53 and replaced with modified 44, 57 and 57A
-New 44 routing: From Newmarket Bus Terminal, travel along Davis Dr West and Bathurst St, then up Woodspring Ave to Green Ln, east on Green Ln to Yonge, south on Yonge to Bristol, then follow current 44 routing through Bristol-London area. When bus returns to Yonge and Bristol, follows reverse routing of above back to Newmarket Bus Terminal. Dial-a-ride service after 7 pm. This replaces old route 44 and north half of discontinued route 53.
-New 57 routing: Follow current 53 routing from Newmarket Bus Terminal south to Mulock and Doubletree. Then east on Mulock to Bayview, south to Stonehaven, east to Leslie, and north to 404 Centre Terminal. Return to Newmarket Bus Terminal via reverse routing. This replaces old route 57 and south half of discontinued route 53. Rush hours only.
-New 57A routing: Follow current 53 routing from Newmarket Bus Terminal south to Mulock and Doubletree. Then east on Mulock to Leslie and north to 404 Centre Terminal. Return to Newmarket Bus Terminal via reverse routing. This replaces old route 57A and south half of discontinued route 53.

31 and 34
Option 1: Discontinue both routes at all times.
Option 2: Combine 31 and 34 into one route.
-New 31 routing: From Wellington and Yonge, west on Wellington, north on Haida, west on Aurora Heights, north on Bathurst or Whispering Pine, east on Orchard Heights, north on Yonge, east on St John's, south on Industrial to Yonge, then north on Yonge and back to start. Route runs in one direction only (possibly opposite to above). Rush hours only.

81 and 86
-New 81 routing: From Bernard Terminal, north on Yonge, west on Tower Hill, south on Rollinghill, west on Gamble, north on Selwyn, west on Tower Hill, north on Bathurst, east on Jefferson, south on Yonge back to Bernard Terminal. Service removed from Silver Maple. Route may run in one or both directions (not stated either way). Rush hours only.
-New 86 Routing: From Richmond Hill Centre, south on ramp to Seven, east on Seven to Red Maple, north to Sixteenth, west to Yonge, north to Weldrick, east to Essex, north along Essex and Newkirk to Elgin Mills, west to Yorkland, north to Devonsleigh, east and north to Nineteenth, east to Jefferson Forest, looping via Jefferson Forest and Shadow Falls. All service on this route that lies west of Yonge is discontinued.

83 and 83A
Option 1:
-New 83 routing: Follow current 83 routing from Richmond Hill Centre to Mill and Ellery, then north on Ellery, east and north on Regent, north on Shaftsbury, east on Canyon Hill, then loop via east on Bernard, north on Yorkland, west on Silverwood and south on Yonge back to Bernard. At peak times, follow same routing except from at Elgin Mills and Regent, go west on Elgin Mills, north on Bathurst, and east on Shaftsbury back to route. Service in Via Romano area discontinued.
-83A follows current routing but is cut back to rush hours only.
Option 2:
-83 follows same routing as in Option 1.
-83A discontinued at all times.

589
-Add stops at Longo's/PharmaPlus near Yonge and Elgin Mills, and at medical building near Bathurst and Major Mackenzie.
-Frequency decreased to every 90 minutes in both directions.

9 and 15
-Combine routes 9 and 15 into one route. From Markham-Stouffville Hospital, west on Church, north on Ninth to Parkview Village, then south to Hoover Park, west to Rougeview, south to Sam's, west to Forty-Eight, north to Main, east to Ninth, then looping via Ninth, Millard, Glad Park and Elm back to Ninth, south to Main, east to Tenth, South to Hoover Park, west to Ninth, south to Church and east to Markham-Stouffville Hospital. Service removed from Eastern Gate area.

224C and 224D
-224C service removed from west of Woodbine. New looping: north on Victoria Park to Denison, west to Woodbine, north to Riviera, east to Rodick, north to Fourteenth, east to Alden, then south on Hood to Denison, west to Esna Park, south to Steelcase, and west to Victoria Park.
-224D service removed from Lanark, Cochrane, Frontenac, Allstate, Centurian, Valleywood and Hooper. Buses stay on Woodbine Ave.

301, 303 and NEW 304 (to be named 'Berczy Express')
-Route 301 modified to operate as follows: from Ramerville and Snider, south on Snider, east on Parkway, north on Wootten, east on Fincham, north and west on Larkin, north on Fincham, east on Sixteenth, north on Williamson, and west on Bur Oak to Mount Joy GO Stn. Service to Finch Stn follows reverse routing. Service removed between Ramerville and Snider, and Fincham and Sixteenth.
-Route 303: Service runs only between Finch Stn and Mount Joy GO Stn. Service on Bur Oak between Mount Joy GO Stn and McCowan replaced by new route 304. Service on route 303 west of McCowan discontinued; service provided by route 18 only.
-NEW route 304: Operates express from Finch Stn to 407 and Kennedy. Routing north on Kennedy, east on Seven, north on McCowan, and east on Bur Oak to Mount Joy GO Stn. Service to Finch Stn follows reverse routing.

37D
-Route cut back to rush hours only.

7, 10 and 11
-Route 11 discontinued at all times, with part of route to be replaced by modified route 10.
-Route 10 modified to operate as follows: from Langstaff and Islington, south on Islington, west on Woodbridge, then loops via north on Martin Grove, and east and south on Forest back to Woodbridge. Service removed on old looping between Martin Grove and Forest, and Islington and Langstaff, with most to be replaced with modified route 7.
-Route 7 modified to operate as follows: from Martin Grove and Morning Star, west and south on Morning Star, west on Medallion, north on Twenty-Seven, and east on Rutherford to Al Paladini Community Centre. During rush hours, route continues east on Rutherford to Vaughan Mills Terminal.

20
On weekends, remove service from Interchange Way, Edgeley, Portage, Millway, Langstaff, and Courtland. Service will run along Jane only between Interchange Way and Courtland. (Route 35D will continue to operate as it currently does)

87
Remove service from Melville, Major Mackenzie, Jane, Tierra, John Deisman, America, Ahmadiyya, Mosque, and Teston on the west end, and Seven, Red Maple, Silver Linden, Bantry, Bayview and High Tech on the east end. All service runs between Richmond Hill Centre and Vaughan Mills Terminal only.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

DISAGREED! Route 10 is important and while the very long circuitous loop through Woodbridge can be eliminated (I say, run it 2-way along Islington north to Rutherford and follow the Napa Valley loop that 85 and 13 use) The route along Ansley Grove to York U should be kept. VIVA Orange may be great at frequency but when York U is so close by, the last thing people want is a bus transfer for such a short distance. People will might as well either drive straight to York or park at the local Fortinos and take VIVA from there...further decimating Rte 10's ridership potential...

Also i think once the 77 is rerouted through Woodbridge Ave, you can elimiated Route 11 because most of the route is a duplication of Route 13 along Islington. I dont think a route along Kipling and Langstaff will have much ridership when the Martin Grove route and the 77 take in the majority of riders...

Summary: Restructure Route 10 for better ridership, Eliminate Route 11, Reroute 77.

Thing is rt 10 is a crutch keeping yrt from providing adequate service so that transfers are not loathed as they are. Everyone in York/Vaughan hates transfers because the service sucks so bad (outside of their busiest routes) that you never know when you transfer bus will arrive. If service is frequent enough riders will not mind the transfer.

 

[accura407]

Thing is rt 10 is a crutch keeping yrt from providing adequate service so that transfers are not loathed as they are. Everyone in York/Vaughan hates transfers because the service sucks so bad (outside of their busiest routes) that you never know when you transfer bus will arrive. If service is frequent enough riders will not mind the transfer.

Yeah but lets be realistic...the only routes in Woodbridge-Vaughan that will always have a decent frequency and ridership are...Highway 7, Weston Rd & Rutherford Road...Maybe Martin Grove too

The rest are such terrible ridership corridors no matter what is done...so be realistic and make the trips simple. I live in the Ansley Grove neighbourhood and i know that the only people that even take the York U bus do so because it is one simple ride. Having to transfer would just demolish the remaining weak ridership on that route...

I do like the proposal though...makes Route 10 more straightforward and realigns it via Blue Willow to get all that extra density that has yet to be tapped in!

Looking forward to it...but worried that having the route go through the terrible Hwy 7 & Weston intersection would make the times unreliable...we'll see

 

[taal]

Lots of cuts being proposed here ... hopefully for the better in the long run. I do like some of the realignment.

 

[JoeParez]

Yeah but lets be realistic...the only routes in Woodbridge-Vaughan that will always have a decent frequency and ridership are...Highway 7, Weston Rd & Rutherford Road...Maybe Martin Grove too

The rest are such terrible ridership corridors no matter what is done...so be realistic and make the trips simple. I live in the Ansley Grove neighbourhood and i know that the only people that even take the York U bus do so because it is one simple ride. Having to transfer would just demolish the remaining weak ridership on that route...

I do like the proposal though...makes Route 10 more straightforward and realigns it via Blue Willow to get all that extra density that has yet to be tapped in!

Looking forward to it...but worried that having the route go through the terrible Hwy 7 & Weston intersection would make the times unreliable...we'll see

I remember when there was a bus on Chancellor (an actual Chancellor route!) and thought to myself "who the fuck is going to get on a bus through this neighbourhood?".

But you're correct in your assessment that these routes get their ridership because is one ride.

 

[Electrify]

On Wednesday, I made my way up to Keswick to finally attend one of YRT's open houses to review some of the new service changes. Overall, I really like the 86's new alignment. While I know someone who lives on Bernard Ave and will now have to walk to Yorkland to catch a bus, I think it will now be more direct and useful to more people. In fact, I could even see taking it directly to Richmond Hill Centre or Hillcrest Mall rather than transferring on to the 99 or Viva Blue. While I do like the much needed stream lining of the 83, I don't think it will go over as smoothly. The 83A route, which branches away from the main route near Mill Pond Park to provide west-east service through downtown Richmond Hill and on to Richmond Green, is being cut to rush hour only. I think that it should run until Bayview all day, but east of there it should be rush hour only. West of Bayview it runs through older and denser neighbourhoods, and I know the demographics are also older as many people who live in that area have done so long before the town became absorbed by sprawl. Then again, if it is such a poor performer that they are considering only providing rush hour service, maybe these people just don't use the bus that much.

I also threw out a number of my own comments, suggestions, and inquiries as well (in fact, I may have overwhelmed them with my transit geekiness). Going against my conflict of interest since I work part time at the Loblaws at Yonge and Bernard, I suggested putting in a local stop in front of the new Longos plaza and a Viva stop in front of the Sobey's plaza. I asked about why the 35D Jane St. bus ends about a mile before the Vaughan Mills Terminal, and they said that overall most of the service demand is to go through the industrial park and that there hasn't been many people wanting it to go to the mall. The off-peak routing on the 20 Jane-Concord route will now go straight along Jane between Vaughan Mills and York University, and they are expecting to get enough compliments that they could run it like that at all times, and use a separate branch to detour through the industrial parks.

Finally, I pointed out an error they had on their scheduling where it shows the 86 bus is scheduled to depart as the GO train pulls in. In reality the bus waits for connecting passengers, so this throws the route off schedule, especially for those trying to connect from the Bernard Terminal. They had no idea about this, and thought that it was scheduled to wait several minutes after the train has arrive. Hell, they didn't believe me until I went online and showed them the schedules myself. Afterwards, I joked that I single handedly improved the reliability on the route by 300%!