York Region Transit: Viva service thread

[reaperexpress]

Are Dufferin/Finch, and Murray Ross stops ready yet?

They weren't when I last went by two weeks ago, but I don't expect it to take that long to do once they start. Only the northbound stops need VivaNow machines, since people are not allowed to board going southbound.

 

[saiho]

With the latest kick in the stomach by the provincial government, I'm starting to lose hope in ever seeing the GTA having adequate transit as a viable alternative to the car. Why do politics play such a huge role in transit planning? It's ridiculously degrading to the entire effort.

well you could have the opposite where the government is actively pursuing transit. Your house might get demolished for a new subway station, your park for a train yard, your favorite mall for a HSR terminal and you can't do anything about it. but hey now you got sick mass transit, and its also called China. So be careful

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Yeah....I'm pretty sure there is a way for a government to seriously invest in transit without becoming a Communist dictatorship.
I think all xstremesniper (and most people here) are asking for is a happy medium....but thanks for the warning, I guess.

 

[Justin10000]

well you could have the opposite where the government is actively pursuing transit. Your house might get demolished for a new subway station, your park for a train yard, your favorite mall for a HSR terminal and you can't do anything about it. but hey now you got sick mass transit, and its also called China. So be careful

The government can demolish your house, if it is necessary.

 

[taal]

With Viva ridership actually falling short of initial projections over the first few years ... I think I've come to the conclusion York region is making a lot of wrong descisions - they're spending an extravagant amount of money on making transit prettier - I think initial shock and aww of Viva has warn off - one can only hope once it's a true BRT it'll be more attractive. The problems are pretty clear though - there's been little to focus on any of the feeder routes that frankly, probably have the worst service in the GTA (I guess that means I'm only comparing it to Brampton / Mississauga ... Toronto is not fair) and that works against them.

 

[Second_in_pie]

The problem is that there's nothing for the system to feed into. Go service can be described as spotty at best, and other than that, Viva's 15 minute "express" service isn't exactly something to build a transit network on. The thing that should be focused on is Go service on all the Go lines, coming towards regular train service. Once you get that, it'll provide a good backbone to provide feeder services to and base Viva off of. Until then, Viva will be useless. Even if it had full BRT on every corridor, it still wouldn't have the kind of connection with the rest of the system needed for transit to be a credible choice. Recently, I commuted by bicycle because of my sheer frustration with how spotty transit is outside of directional peak hour traffic. That's something that needs to be desperately addressed. Sure, there's still some big kinks in the system, but it's not a magical "add more busses" situation.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Still feeder routes are, I think, the biggest thing missing in YRT's plan. That and some wonky routing choices that they recently began addressing.

 

[xtremesniper]

I think the simple fact that every 4-6 months there are tons of route changes on routes that are actually pretty popular (for YRT standards) all year round is one of the reasons why they keep shooting themselves in the foot.

Changing the frequency of a route every time there's a 1-3% dip or rise in ridership on a route just means you're never allowing for the route to grow. Like it or not, but people like to see very frequent service before they even start thinking about taking the bus anywhere. If they see 30 minute intervals, they won't even consider it. Forget about "logic" that would say you can just time your arrival to the bus stop to match the schedule. People don't want that; they want to be able to go to the stop at any point in time and not wait half an hour if they just missed the bus.

And yes, there are barely any decent feeder routes to the Viva, at least in my area. Whenever I have taken the Viva I have either had to be dropped off at a stop, or I've had to bus all the way west to Yonge and then bus down to Richmond Hill Centre to connect to Viva Purple. Any north/south routes are usually operated under the TTC name and have pretty shoddy frequencies, and the other local routes run by YRT tend to veer off course right before Hwy 7 to go through some residential areas, thus making the route useless to me.

I know you can't plan a service that makes everyone happy, but for the love of transit, it should be pretty straightforward to realize that the only way to convince people with cars to take transit is to do more than just the bare minimum.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I think the simple fact that every 4-6 months there are tons of route changes on routes that are actually pretty popular (for YRT standards) all year round is one of the reasons why they keep shooting themselves in the foot.

Changing the frequency of a route every time there's a 1-3% dip or rise in ridership on a route just means you're never allowing for the route to grow. Like it or not, but people like to see very frequent service before they even start thinking about taking the bus anywhere. If they see 30 minute intervals, they won't even consider it. Forget about "logic" that would say you can just time your arrival to the bus stop to match the schedule. People don't want that; they want to be able to go to the stop at any point in time and not wait half an hour if they just missed the bus.

And yes, there are barely any decent feeder routes to the Viva, at least in my area. Whenever I have taken the Viva I have either had to be dropped off at a stop, or I've had to bus all the way west to Yonge and then bus down to Richmond Hill Centre to connect to Viva Purple. Any north/south routes are usually operated under the TTC name and have pretty shoddy frequencies, and the other local routes run by YRT tend to veer off course right before Hwy 7 to go through some residential areas, thus making the route useless to me.

I know you can't plan a service that makes everyone happy, but for the love of transit, it should be pretty straightforward to realize that the only way to convince people with cars to take transit is to do more than just the bare minimum.

+1

Furthermore. Most routes in the past tended to focus on "one seat" rides to a "big" destination, and that resulted in many routes going to one destination and going off course to do so. For example take York U, RHC, Finch station, and Promenade. I'd say that 99% of YRT's routes in the past served one, if not two, of these nodes. I know that nodes are a big deal but there should be trunk routes that operate between one or more nodes and local routes that feed into the trunk routes. Instead the feeder routes took great diversions to hit the nodes when they could simply have had a transfer with a trunk route (read VIVA in particular) and transfer from there. Take routes 5, 10 and 20 which take circuitous routes serving York U (Which is served by VIVA Purple and Orange) if these routes focused instead on getting people the VIVA route and transferring, rather than to the destination, they'd have more service to the residents.

I know the allure of a single seat right is large but sometimes it is more efficient to transfer, sometimes.

 

[xtremesniper]

+1

Furthermore. Most routes in the past tended to focus on "one seat" rides to a "big" destination, and that resulted in many routes going to one destination and going off course to do so. For example take York U, RHC, Finch station, and Promenade. I'd say that 99% of YRT's routes in the past served one, if not two, of these nodes. I know that nodes are a big deal but there should be trunk routes that operate between one or more nodes and local routes that feed into the trunk routes. Instead the feeder routes took great diversions to hit the nodes when they could simply have had a transfer with a trunk route (read VIVA in particular) and transfer from there. Take routes 5, 10 and 20 which take circuitous routes serving York U (Which is served by VIVA Purple and Orange) if these routes focused instead on getting people the VIVA route and transferring, rather than to the destination, they'd have more service to the residents.

I know the allure of a single seat right is large but sometimes it is more efficient to transfer, sometimes.

Yes, that is also true. I don't think I really realized it before, but the TTC does a great job of providing routes so that people can go just about anywhere in Toronto, whether or not there is a major destination nearby. Meanwhile, all YRT does is try to take you to places it thinks you're likely to go to instead of covering even the areas without a "go-to" destination.

 

[ShonTron]

Service changes for Sept. 7 are up:

http://www.yrt.ca/schedules/service-changes.asp

Route 22A replaces the old Newmarket-Aurora-York U service, but won't be as quick or as comfortable, but does provide King City with better connections.

Route 77 is cut back on the 7th, though Brampton's Zum won't be running until the 20th. Though free transfers will be permitted still, and BT will operate the 1 Queen to Highway 50 and a temporary express bus to York U in the meantime.

Some service cuts have been reversed, like the Stouffville bus and bus routes to York U.

 

[CDL.TO]

* Effective August 22, in addition to valid YRT/Viva fare media, customers may use a valid TTC pass (Day, GTA, Weekly or Monthly Metropass) or valid TTC transfer when travelling on Viva orange between York University and Downsview Station.

Hey, they actually managed to get that through! Still not running on the busway, though.

 

[wilson_wu]

I sent this idea to YRT/Brampton

After the introduction of Zum, a combined 7.5 minute frequency is a bit too much for the western leg of Highway 7.

York Region and Brampton should work together to see how they can structure both routes to optimize service efficiency. At the moment, it looks like they're just dumping resources down the drain by sending buses down every 7.5 minutes on a corridor that currently doesn't justify that level of service.

ZUM should provide service from Brampton to Downsview Station.
Benefits:
-There is no loss from the current service levels operated by VIVA Orange.
-The route would provide a direct connection between Brampton and the subway. After September 2010 service changes, there is no longer any direct connections between Brampton and the TTC subway network. The subway is a major trip generator for Brampton buses heading to Toronto.

VIVA Orange should provide service from Martin Grove -> Promenade Terminal or Richmond Hill Centre
Benefits:
-Connects western Vaughan to the rest of the VIVA network. Western Vaughan is currently the only section of the system that seems to be disconnected from the rest of the VIVA network, as one can't make a direct trip there without having to detour to York University. At the moment, YRT 77 is the route of choice to get to Vaughan.
-Closes the awkward gap between Jane and Keele that is devoid of rapid transit service. Passengers cannot make a direct crosstown trip across Highway 7.

Attached is an illustration of what I am suggesting

v

 

[xtremesniper]

Not a bad idea, though I guess we'll see if they respond to your letter or even consider it. I have a feeling they don't pay much attention to suggestions from ridership. All those surveys they conduct don't result in anything.

 

[Rainforest]

Extending ZUM to Downsview Stn makes a lot of sense.

Not so sure about the new VIVA Orange between Richmond Hill Ctr and Martin Grove. It looks nice on the map; but, not being connected to subway or York U, it would see pretty low ridership compared to other VIVA routes.

I'd rather beef up the local 77 bus (run it every 15 min weekdays and weekends) to better serve Hwy 7, including the VIVA gap between Keele and Jane.

The new VIVA Orange route could run from Downsview via York U and further up Jane, on a trial basis. If it sticks, it would prepare ridership in the future Jane corridor leading to VCC subway. And during summer, it could go to Wonderand; would be faster than 165 Weston bus.