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Yonge-University-Spadina line – subway rail yard needs strategy

All good points. Somehow the TTC thinks that it or York Region will be able to magically find a place to build a new rail yard up in Thornhill (never going to happen due to heritage and wealthy homes in area). The only places along Yonge would have to be north of Hwy7 in Richmond Hill somewhere. Building long tail tracks would be ok I guess, but if a train needs to be taken out of service for repairs, it's a long deadhead to Wilson.

I had a feeling that the TTC did not seriously consider the Sheppard West extension. They did not even think about just boring a tunnel without any stations, but making the tunnel flat near Bathurst and Downsview. Also, they claimed that a new bridge would have to be built over the West Don. Does that TTC not know how to tunnel under a river? Geez, the Don is no St. Lawrence, it's a stream, surely the tunnel boring machine can dive down and go under the river bed. With no stations really needed until just west of Bathurst, there would be plenty of time for the tunnel to come back up closer to the usual shallow tunnel level.

It's the old-school mentality at the TTC that really hinders progress in building a grid of rapid transit in this city. They under-estimate the usefulness of network connectivity and having some redundancy in the network.

One of the reasons people hate the TTC is because it is very fragile to any delays or problems because there is a lack of redundancy and alternate means to get around if a clog appears on the network. Yonge subway shutdown between St. Clair and Bloor ==> Disaster! Had there been a connection via Sheppard, people would have been able to bypass it via rapid transit instead of waiting for the relatively few shuttle buses.
 
I don't know why they just don't scrap the Finch East portion of the LRT which will screw up one of the few decent bus routes in this city and use that money to extend the subway westward.

The current state of bus ridership does not accurately capture the ridership potential of a subway connection between Yonge and Downsview. Riders who use Finch or Steeles to get to York or access the Spadina subway would flood a Sheppard West link. That kind of ridership is unlikely to be captured in the existing bus ridership on Sheppard West, which as Scarberian pointed out is hardly miniscule.
 
Exactly. If you talk to Adam Giambrone, he says there is not much demand as the bus route is note very busy.

What the TTC does not comprehend is the effect of latent demand. Once a new service of connection is made that did not exist before, it attracts NEW riders or shifts existing riders over. With constant delays on the Yonge line, many from NYCC would surely take Finch to Sheppard, transfer over to Downsview and head down that way when a delay arises (as it most often does).

One things that I've noticed from anecdotal experience is that residents in NYCC are fairly close to Yorkdale, and the Costco centre, but the only way to get there is to drive. My sister used to go around from FInch to Yorkdale rather than catch 2 buses.

Until NYCC gets better street level retail, many shop for clothes and other such things at Yorkdale. The Sheppard West connection would enable those to get there quickly without a car, which helps, especially during this time of year when parking is hard to find at big malls.
 
Moreover, I am simply disgusted that would want to waste valuable land on a yard as opposed to building office or condo towers. So much for transit oriented development.
 
And for reasons like this, I do not see Miller and Giambrone as pro-transit. It's all smoke and mirrors. Granted this is a "TTC" decision, but who steers the TTC? Miller and Giambrone.
 
kEiThZ said:
Moreover, I am simply disgusted that would want to waste valuable land on a yard as opposed to building office or condo towers. So much for transit oriented development.
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I totally agree. The tail track is acceptable, but building a whole yard in Thornhill is kind of stupid.

If Eglinton was to be a subway, I'd say we should put a subway yard close to Pearson, where other people don't want to locate business or industry. I think this is totally comparable to the Wilson yard. It would only take maybe a kilometer of non-revenue track to get to empty land around Pearson. Then, they should work on upgrading Wilson. With Sheppard West, Wilson would actually be incredibly central in location. If another rail yard is needed, I'd think that there could be some room on the B-D east of VP somewhere for a small yard, maybe just a storage facility or something.
 
So according to the TTC when we come to compare the various options for what to build along Yonge Street, the analysis of a subway extension to Richmond Hill has to include the expense of the subway along Sheppard in order to access Wilson Yard. This cost has not been included in any of the Yonge extension analysis to date.

This cost gets added to the other fundamental cost that has not been included for the Yonge extension, namely the cost of expanding capacity in the area of downtown to handle the expected heavy passenger flow. Hence the debate about the Downtown Relief Line (DRL) and the Yonge Express Subway (Y.E.S.) .

I think we should consider a yard in Thornhill, the capital costs occur once. The opertating costs of a yard removed from the line and not near the terminus are substantial and go on forever.
 
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To those arguing Sheppard W vs Sheppard E vs DRL vs whatever. Realize this, it is not a one or the other proposition. Each subway plan has a separate and distinct purpose. Sheppard W would connect the Spadina and Yonge arms of the subway and allow Wilson to be the main yard (read operational benefit), Sheppard E would connect the Sheppard line to the B-D line (connectivity), the DRL would take pressure off of the Bloor/Yonge interchange (capacity). All are necessary and all should be in the TTC's planning a priority projects, then go to senior levels of government and make the case for these improvements just like you did for TC.
 
lead82 said:
...
What the TTC does not comprehend is the effect of latent demand. Once a new service of connection is made that did not exist before, it attracts NEW riders or shifts existing riders over.
...
Click to expand...

The TTC planners might benefit from taking courses in interactive non-linear dynamics... I would be one of these new riders--I live at Yonge & Sheppard and I work at Sheppard and Allen Rd. Occasionally, I do take a bus, but usually I drive. If Yonge-Sheppard to Downsview subway connection gets built, I will take it! (probably, I will sell our second car). I am sure I am not alone.
 
scarberiankhatru said:
Yes, buses sometimes bunch and, shockingly, they may not always stick to the schedule. The TTC can't control the frequency of bus routes like they were Wonderland rides.

Not that anyone can actually know what practical frequencies and real typical wait times are unless they stand at Sheppard station and watch buses come and go for a solid hour, mind you.
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There's a difference between being late and a frequent bus not showing up for half an hour or more. Many time we see the 107-105-85-98 out perform the 196B.

I checked the schedule on TTC website...there's supposed to be a bus every 7 minutes and all along I thought it was every 15 minutes...

Very rarely do they show up every 7 minutes...If they showed up every 15 minutes no one would complain. If we complain it's because they someimes show up 20-25 minutes later...
 
Wonder how many take the 196 York University Rocket from the Sheppard-Yonge to the Downsview station, and/or vice-versa?

196map.gif
 
Whenever I take the 196B from York, I'd say about half the bus continues on to Sheppard/Yonge.
 
Lots of people tend to take whichever comes first...sometimes the 196 is completely overloaded and other times, if a Sheppard West bus leaves right before, it could be pretty sparse on board. That's what happens when routes overlap...it's almost impossible to count ridership based on occasional anecdotes/estimates when routes overlap.

A Sheppard extension to Downsview is necessary to make the Spadina extension worthwhile.
 
rbt said:
Aren't you one of those people that bitches about how the TTC wastes money?

The deadhead savings from a Sheppard West were on the order of $2Million per year. Surely you don't want the TTC to spend $XBillion to save $2Million per year.

If Sheppard West is needed it will be built due to ridership but even Lastman, who campaigned for Sheppard subway for decades, was unable to justify it West of Yonge.
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It's called an investment

-You give better service to current riders and attracting new riders...decrease traffic on Sheppard West

-Accelerate the economic growth and densification on Sheppard West...
A) More density+higher taxes=extra revenue for the city...

-You eliminate the need of building a new yard in Thornhill. They can just expand the Wilson yard

-You give alternatives to people when there a problem on the network like the Yonge Shutdown...With that subway extension, the underused Spadina line would have been accessible.

-I thought the Sheppard west tunnel was already dug near Bathurst...

-Connecting Downsview to Don Mills...Create new travel pattern, reduces the overall transit time to go from point A to B. Even for someone living at Jane-Sheppard wanting to got to STC, you easily cut the travel time by half...which would increase ridership.

-TTC wouldn't need the 196B buses, which they could use on other routes to inprove service like the 84 who badly need it. 196 would disappear after 2014.

-TTC could have better managed the Sheppard line years ago instead of crying that they were loosing money...

Keeping the subway line open until 2AM....I mean c'mon TTC. The 385 Blue night bus runs efficiently on Sheppard East. Operating the subway that late, is a stupid waste of money. That line is very useful from morning to maybe midnight.

The Montreal blue line closed at 11h15 pm in the 90s and the growing ridership justified the subway being opened at 1am. Many New York line operate differently depending on the ridership and the time of the day...

For a reason that I just don't get, the TTC wants to operate the Sheppard line like all the others...which explains why they claimed to lost money for so long...

Anyone thinking that this hole in our network is not an embarrassment needs to travel and see how its done elsewhere.
 
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