Why Streetcars Make People Crazy! (Picture)

[noctis]

^^Both Hong Kong and Taiwan have tram systems. Yeesh.

You guys do not get there shouldn't be a debate of what technology is better. It's not a one size fits all deal. Great transit have both streetcars AND ETB, as well as subways, and LRT. You cannot just have a system of buses, and subways. History has shown you need intermediate capacity, which streetcars provide.

yes i understand that, i mean if they really want to build the LRT, then build it underground...that i am fine with...

 

[RC8]

Alright smarty pants, explain to me why streetcars are better than ETBs (besides increased capacity). Please fill in the blanks.

Streetcars are better than electric buses because:

1) Increased capacity (new streetcars will be 2-3 times the size of a bus, if you've taken queen, king, or spadina at rush hour you know we need larger vehicles)

2) Offer a smoother ride, which encourages transit usage. If I can choose between a bus and driving I'd drive, but I happily take the streetcar over a car.

3) Are cheaper to maintain once the cost of installation has been made.

4) Can go faster than electric buses when not mixed with traffic. The streetcar in the Queensway frequently leaves behind cars that are speeding in the parallel gardiner expressway.

5) Can easily go underground to connect with subways or have underground sections ala Eglinton LRT. The streetcar link at Union station or Spadina, etc. would be very difficult to engineer without railed vehicles.

Now, 2 things. The city obviously needs to be able to remove vehicles from streetcar tracks as soon as they become an obstacle. And the new streetcars will be able to 'push' a streetcar in front of them even uphill so that a they are less likely to bunch.

One more Ottawa picture:

P.S. noctis that might just be the worst post I've seen in urbantoronto.

 

[TransitPolicyChanger]

Alright smarty pants, explain to me why streetcars are better than ETBs (besides increased capacity).

Streetcars are better than electric buses because:

1) Rail is more efficient than rubber tires

2) Rail provides a better more comfortable ride

3) We will soon be able to reduce the number of vehicles with the new fleet (assuming it does not get cancelled) which will have more capacity above the current streetcars, i.e. currently it may be necessary to replace to CLRVs with 3 buses, where the new street cars may be 3 buses to 1 LFLRV

4) Although buses can move around obstacles, they are not cars and have dimensional requirements for pulling over into stops or going around road blockages. People would believe that buses would pull over at stops leaving the road clear for cars to pass; however, if you have two buses approaching a stop, one will pull over with the other remaining in the live lane blocking traffic (at times when street parking is permitted).

5) As noted above, Electric trolley buses can go around some blockages, but if both lanes of traffic are blocked most likely these buses will be lined up just like streetcars (i think they can only move from right lane to left lane and not into opposite lanes) and the line will be longer because there will be many more buses

Please fill in the blanks.

These are just my thoughts, not saying everything above is true, just my opinion of what would happen and not necessarily saying this is why streetcars are better than ETBs

 

[epcjay]

Cheaper in terms of labour too.

1 Street Car = 1.5 Bus

If we had 200 street car, which mean 200 drivers = 300 Buses, with 300 Drivers

the extra labour @ 50k a driver = 10 million vs 15 million

If it was 1 street car to 2 buses

200 street car drivers would = to 400 bus drivers. @ 50k = 10 million vs 20 million

 

[Justin10000]

People like riding streetcars. You never hear anyone complaining about the ride, even with our old clunkers.

 

[khris]

I love riding streetcars. They're so smooth.

 

[WilWil]

subway is the way to go y'all! but since we got no cash, dun even think about it...

personally, i am not a big fan of streetcars either...i dun care if it's LRT or just plain streetcars, they all take up space! besides, WE DON'T NEED THEM!

whatever the ford brothers are doin now, i hope they keep doin their best. hopefully we can find some cash and build subways. i am tired of this sh**, been living here for 16 years and still nothing has changed...

please, learn from other countries: hong kong, taiwan, etc. use them as role models

First Post!

I'm sure you're aware of the MTR Light Rail in Hong Kong, which plays an important role in transporting local populations in the Northwestern part of the territory. Obviously there are differences between the MTR Light Rail and our streetcar configurations (among those include dedicated ROW, longer station spacings and station platforms). If the City is determined to improve both people and vehicle flow in downtown, they should look at adopting these measures (in my knowledge, there are a fair share of staff reports that have recommended such measures). I agree that a heavy rail line underneath Queen/King would be ideal, but that doesn't change the fact that streetcars can play a vital role in the grand scheme of things. We just need to create a situation where they can perform optimally.

And don't forget about the century-old double-decker tram system on the Island, which still holds a significant mode share among all trips made within the Island.

And good point, Justin10000, on the need for intermediate capacity in a city with large transit population.

 

[PinkLucy]

I'd pick riding a streetcar over a bus any day, but the pictures of bunched streetcars are an all to common occurrence especially along Spadina. I don't know how many times I've seen bunched up cars at the QQ/Spadina intersection.

 

[paraone]

In my experience the biggest problem with our streetcar net work is that it's too small, if we still had the amount of track we did in the 50's we'd be able to have idle streetcars on lesser used streets, (or small yard like holding pens) it would also make it easier for a route to be re-routed without have to navigate through half the city.... Imagine if streets like church, parliament, ossignton, Carlaw/Pape, coxwell, Dufferin, Harbourd, wellsley, etc still had their entire track we'd be able to quickly and efficiently re-route cars around trouble spots. Now if there is an accident at pape/queen, cars have to turn at broadview, gerrard, coxwell to circumvent the accident, not very efficient.

 

[JoeParez]

I've always wondered whether it would be feasible or possible to have cross over or "by-pass" tracks installed on routes so that streetcars can well, by-pass disabled streetcars. I know that there would be extensive engineering and communication involved to do it however, wouldn't it be convenient for a moving streetcar to switch to the oncoming tracks (by communicating with the oncoming streetcar) to by pass a stalled vehicle in order to reduce bunch-ups and keep service flowing?

I've attached a very, very crude AutoCAD sketch of what I'm talking about..

Just a thought really....

 

[W. K. Lis]

Subway trains never bunch, because there are no emergencies that hold the trains up.

...not.

 

[reaperexpress]

Sure, if the entire road is jammed then buses will be stuck too (duh), but if the road is otherwise clear (just one thing obstructing one lane) buses can drive AROUND it. Streetcars just get bogged up behind each other.

The only argument against electric buses is that they don't have the same capacity as streetcars.

Well, not necessarily. Buses still have to serve stops, so the lane choice is often already made.

Here's a picture I took in Ottawa a while ago, and the buses are all jammed because there is limited space at the stops they all have to serve.

EDIT: Oops, just realized someone already posted my other almost identical picture.

Fun fact: the other picture was used in a Seattle Transit report comparing LRT and BRT (Warning: 9MB), and was captioned: "Capacity issues on Ottawa’s Transitway spurred implementation of light rail and a downtown transit tunnel."

 

[JoeParez]

Subway trains never bunch, because there are no emergencies that hold the trains up.

...not.

Nice shot of Lower Bay; didn't know an abandoned station could hold up trains. ;-)

 

[hawc]

Nice shot of Lower Bay.

Heheh, burn.

 

[Justin10000]

haha! Not the correct pitcure to use. But the subway DOES experience bunching, and delays due to longer than usual dwells times, people being dicks and holding doors(I actually pushed one douche out of the doorwell once), and emergencies. I have seen situations where you can see a train behind yours because of delays.