Why is downtown Queen East abandoned?

[kkgg7]

The other day I was walking on Queen East and was surprised by the condition of that area. I am not talking about areas far from downtown, but the stretch between say Victoria (past St Mike) and Jarvis (before it hits Moss Park). That location is fantastic, 5-10 minutes to the Queen subway, Eaton center, St Lawrance Market, financial district yet it looks totally abandoned as if no one cares!

Contrary to Queen West, there is very little commercial activities. On the south side, a few old red brick row-house sort of buildings, except for George restaurant, you don't know any of those are. On the north side, there is humongous surface parking lot occupying the entire area between Dalhousie and Mutual, Queen and Shutter. I mean, it is really huge! then some sparadic small structures I would never step into.

The area between Richmond St E and Adelaide E, only 5 minutes away from Yonge, multiple large surface parking lots just lie there for years.

All these should be considered prime location, in the very center of the city, why are they not developed yet? Just because it is east of Yonge st makes it that unattractive? I mean St Lawrance market is litterally steps away in the south?

I really look forward for this area to be developed, and those vast empty lots in such great location are just unbelievable! Anyone knows any projects coming up there?

 

[neubilder]

It has been tainted by it's proximity to Regent Park and several hospitals and shelters etc. A bit like East Vancouver. BUT, this is all changing fast. There is no reason for this to be a downtrodden area as you have noticed. It's a great area and a beautiful part of the city with huge potential. Lots of great old buildings and storefronts, parks etc. Those who don't carry their prejudices with them will go into the area and help bring it back and then the rest will follow.

 

[Red October]

I want the downtown/CBD to spread east of Yonge, so Yonge becomes a more central street. Also there is so much potential.

One example of a lot I think could be developed into something massive, and would balance out the skyline is the entire block between Richmond and Lombard, and Victoria and Church. Right here.

 

[Hipster Duck]

I think one of the answers is that while the proximity of locations to the centre and to major transit is certainly a big factor in urban redevelopment and land value, it isn't the only one. It's hard to shake off a bad reputation, even if it is only steps away from desirable areas in a booming city. Those steps are psychological more than physical; recently a friend of mine bought a condo in the Entertainment District for about $100,000 more than she would have paid at Pace condos at Dundas and Sherbourne. Her argument was that the area was unsafe for women and that waiting for the area to gentrify was still a gamble. Even though I would've jumped on the opportunity, I can see where she's coming from.

Highly sought after areas tend to develop adjacent to other, previously sought after areas even if it defies locational advantage. Thus we see Liberty Village and the area around Ossington (and now further west along Dundas past Dufferin) becoming the 'it' spots, despite the fact that they are pretty far from the core and public transit can be spotty.

 

[TonyV]

This brings to mind the state of the lands west of downtown, in the mid-70s. A lot of that area which is now so inviting was "abandoned", to use the term employed here.

At that time, there was a party interested in building a new concert hall for Toronto. A progressive city government pushed the King/Simcoe site. I recall at the time, some people were saying "why there?". The obvious answer was that the new concert hall would be a catalyst for the renewal of the King West area, and for west downtown in general. A massive proposal then known as "Metro Centre", the original railway lands proposal, had been rejected, yet the city still needed a development to rejuvenate the area. It is true that things were already starting to take hold with the refurbished Royal Alex up and running at the time, but it was sort of lonely. Only a couple of blocks further west, there was a car wash.

The city's strategy worked brilliantly. Roy Thomson Hall helped to trigger renewal on King West.

I wonder how the city could start a similar catalytic reaction in the Queen East of Yonge area. Some suggest an expansion of the CBD in that area, and that could occur, and I believe that there are bound to be more condos. But I wonder if that is enough. May something "special" should be considered, to make the area stand out a bit. A museum? A square? Something to pull development eastward in a way that will draw people into the area 24/7.

Any ideas?

 

[kkgg7]

I want the downtown/CBD to spread east of Yonge, so Yonge becomes a more central street. Also there is so much potential.

One example of a lot I think could be developed into something massive, and would balance out the skyline is the entire block between Richmond and Lonbard, and Victoria and Church. Right here.

I agree with you. I am surprised that corridor between Yonge and Jarvis didn't develop into something more busy/commercial, not just residential like the area between University and Spadina. Regent Park is still a bit far away from there. Church st could easily be rezoned into office buildings/stores. The most part of Jarvis is beautiful with many historic buildings and mansions. There is no reason downtown east can't compete with the west.

As you said, the city right now is disproportionately tilted toward the westside. I mean, there is very little to do or see east of Yonge St and Yonge seems to be the east end of downtown, not the center.

 

[TOareaFan]

One thing that might help is if the PATH ventured East. As an example, it crosses to Dundee Place on the southeast corner of Yonge/Adelaide but goes no further.....if they could find a way to take it to, say, 36 Toronto Street (whch actually fronts Adelaide) and then across Adelaide to the State Street Financial building on the north side of Adelaide...could even go south east from there and connect to 1 Toronto Street and the King Edward Hotel......then you have connected the area to the CBD and there might be some encouragement for further development on the east side that would tie in.

Probably not the major factor but I know that we used to have an office in 36 Toronto and in bad weather I would walk the path to Dundee Place then pop up and have to run through whatever weather I was avoiding across Victoria....tying into the path would increase the potential rents in the area....increasing the potential rents increases the financial viability of a project and....increases the likelihood that there is a project in the first place.

 

[kkgg7]

This brings to mind the state of the lands west of downtown, in the mid-70s. A lot of that area which is now so inviting was "abandoned", to use the term employed here.

At that time, there was a party interested in building a new concert hall for Toronto. A progressive city government pushed the King/Simcoe site. I recall at the time, some people were saying "why there?". The obvious answer was that the new concert hall would be a catalyst for the renewal of the King West area, and for west downtown in general. A massive proposal then known as "Metro Centre", the original railway lands proposal, had been rejected, yet the city still needed a development to rejuvenate the area. It is true that things were already starting to take hold with the refurbished Royal Alex up and running at the time, but it was sort of lonely. Only a couple of blocks further west, there was a car wash.

The city's strategy worked brilliantly. Roy Thomson Hall helped to trigger renewal on King West.

I wonder how the city could start a similar catalytic reaction in the Queen East of Yonge area. Some suggest an expansion of the CBD in that area, and that could occur, and I believe that there are bound to be more condos. But I wonder if that is enough. May something "special" should be considered, to make the area stand out a bit. A museum? A square? Something to pull development eastward in a way that will draw people into the area 24/7.

Any ideas?

Interesting to know more about the history. thanks Tony.
I was wondering (hoping) if the city is intentionally developing east downtown from south and then northward? The St Lawrence Market area is an establish neighbourhood, and King East also seems to be nice, with a lot of modern furniture stores. The issue is north of King, on Adelaide, Richmond, Queen, Shutter. I also think pure condos are not enough, There is already a Jazz apartment building on church/shutter and Spire condo on church/Adelaide, but there needs to be something cultural/commercial that can draw people to visit.

What I can think of is a theatre, or a big department store (Macy's?), which will bring medium -high income folks.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Downtown Queen East reminds me of Danforth east of Coxwell. Something happens there, like there's an invisible line. On this side is elevated property values, upper middle class white folks, expensive shops, great and active nightlife, good schools, etc. On the other side is depressed, poor, etc.

 

[taal]

Downtown Queen East reminds me of Danforth east of Coxwell. Something happens there, like there's an invisible line. On this side is elevated property values, upper middle class white folks, expensive shops, great and active nightlife, good schools, etc. On the other side is depressed, poor, etc.

It's funny though - go further east and it slowly changes, I'd say Queen E goes from OKish - not really run down but lacks anything too interesting to a little more run down across the DVP - but then slowly there's more and more character all the way until you get to the beach where it's high end again.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Site assembly might be an issue, esp. on the south side of Queen - and the area (particularly to the north) is pretty much loaded with what might be considered undesirable land uses in the view of investors - Moss Park/Armory, George/Seaton Street Shelters, etc. No analogue of that for the railway lands.

AoD

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Marching north instead of south

Site assembly might be an issue, esp. on the south side of Queen - and the area (particularly to the north) is pretty much loaded with what might be considered undesirable land uses in the view of investors - Moss Park/Armory, George/Seaton Street Shelters, etc. No analogue of that for the railway lands.

AoD

Unlike Queen West, which started revitalization at Queen and marched south to Wellington, the east side is doing the opposite -- starting with Esplanade/St. Lawrence/Distillery/WDL and marching north through King. Think of Sherbourne: St. Lawrence, then the King east condos, then Richmond, now the Modern. Queen east at Sherbourne is where this stops due to AoD's list (tough to revitalize that corner with the shelter there, and through Dundas to Gerrard it's a mess.)

So, Queen east through that stretch might have some issues, but overall the east end is going through a renaissance like I haven't seen in 15 years of living in Cabbagetown and Riverdale. It's an amazing change -- Queen benefits, but not as much as King.

 

[Admiral Beez]

but overall the east end is going through a renaissance like I haven't seen in 15 years of living in Cabbagetown and Riverdale.

It really is something isn’t it. In 1996 I was a student at George Brown on Richmond at that area was really skid row, especially as you got closer to Sherbourne. In 1998 when I bought my house in Cabbagetown the area was still quite rough. Now with Regent Park being redevelopment into mixed income (actually majority market value units – minority RGI) the change will be amazing.

 

[Northern Light]

Many reasons have been stated here for the state of Queen East (downtown); mine will overlap and vary somewhat.

I would suggest that first, you have several large institutions, which while not necessary bad for the area as such; do have the effect of creating retail dead zones.

St. Mike's Hospital, Metropolitan church, Moss Park Amoury, Moss Park (park), Moss Park TCHC community.

All strung along the north side interestingly; but they wipe out several blocks of potential retail activity. Which isn't to say I want to see them redeveloped! I'm just saying that they both serve to slow the pace of potential redevelopment and impair a healthy retail district which might entice developers.

In addition to the Community Housing, and the Homeless Shelter, you also have the old 'pawnbrokers row' on Church immediately north of Queen; the Green P Parking Garage, opposite St. Mike's; and the large vacant parking lot, on the north side of Queen, just east of Church.

Collectively these are an obstacle. Though, when Tridel first took a big flyer on its condo at Richmond & Sherbourne some years back, few thought that would work and it kicked off an incredible boom of development in that area.

********

Realistically, I think the best prospects are for the large parking lot, east of Church, on Queen; and the Green P garage in the shorter term; both I think could produce viable developments today. If "Pace" condos can sell quickly at Jarvis/Dundas, no reason these 2 sites couldn't work.

further east, the TCHC site and the homeless shelter need to be redeveloped, along the lines of the new Regent Park, creating a mixed income community, without displacing anyone currently receiving assisted housing; and the shelter needs to be smaller, a nicer facility for those who use it; with a focus on getting those who need it, mental health services, assistance w/addictions and/or more permanent housing as appropriate. Sadly that wouldn't help everyone, but it might allow a shelter 1/2 the size, which would greatly ameliorate the community.

 

[TrickyRicky]

kkgg7, actually it's funny you mention it because I was coming back from the East end last week and I was remarking to myself how much less sketchy Queen East, infact all of Queen east from the Beach to Yonge is now compared to 10 years ago.

The stretch of Queen I worry about more is the traditional Queen West strip from Spadina to University. This stretch is not about to become skid row but it is definately in decline. It is a classic example of a victom of it's own success as Jacobs warned us about. It has become less diverse and has a landlord profile that expects, even demands, ultra-high rents. Landlords would rather have their stores empty (as some have become) than reduce rents.

By contrast Queen East is still sketchy but the overall momentum is positive. While the epicentre of Queen has now shifted far to the West of Spadina.