Whose vision of transit in Toronto do you support?

[gweed123]

PS: the costing is in millions, just in case anyone is wondering.

 

[reaperexpress]

I think Metrolinx wanted standard gauge so that Toronto's new LRT network could one day connect to LRT networks in other GTA municipalities - the buying power thing is less less important.

That argument works both ways though. Why don't adjacent transit networks just run TTC gauge? The TTC already has a rail transit network and they don't. Shouldn't we worry about compatibility with an existing network, not a theoretical one?

 

[Justin10000]

TC lines will be using a different voltage. The gauge is irrelevent.

 

[reaperexpress]

It is much easier to make a train that runs on varying voltages than varying gauges. There are many examples of trains with varying voltages, I can think of Amsterdam line 51 and the Eurostar off the top of my head.

 

[kEiThZ]

The cost for Sheppard West should be in there even if it's not a priority. The question is whether that 2.3 billion from the TTC is a valid figure.

The Malvern spur would be at least 150 million I'd think even if it's kept at-grade. You'd have to do something about the cross-streets (full barriers) and fencing off the ROW or you'll be running quiet slow there. There's a small bridge needed over the creek. One of those cross-streets is right beside a school by the way. Check streetview you'll see all the kids. That's a huge source of contention for the community. The TTC pledged to trench the whole thing last time because of the concern of residents. And you'll need tail tracks at the end of the line. It's actually about 2km of track. They'll also want a bus loop at the corner of Neilson and McLevin. If it's partially trenched in the corridor, I'd say it's 200 million for that spur. Or it maybe cheaper to just trench the roads under. That's an alternative too, maybe.

 

[gweed123]

The cost for Sheppard West should be in there even if it's not a priority. The question is whether that 2.3 billion from the TTC is a valid figure.

The Malvern spur would be at least 150 million I'd think even if it's kept at-grade. You'd have to do something about the cross-streets (full barriers) and fencing off the ROW or you'll be running quiet slow there. There's a small bridge needed over the creek. One of those cross-streets is right beside a school by the way. Check streetview you'll see all the kids. That's a huge source of contention for the community. The TTC pledged to trench the whole thing last time because of the concern of residents. And you'll need tail tracks at the end of the line. It's actually about 2km of track. They'll also want a bus loop at the corner of Neilson and McLevin. If it's partially trenched in the corridor, I'd say it's 200 million for that spur. Or it maybe cheaper to just trench the roads under. That's an alternative too, maybe.

I think $2.3 billion is wayyyy over priced. Even using the standard $300 million/km it should only be around $1.23 billion. It's not like it's being built in an entirely different section of the city from the Spadina extension either. An argument would be that it would have to cross the Don, but even then, a bridge is still around the same price as a tunnel per km, is it not? I would think it would be less than a tunnel actually.

 

[Rainforest]

Here is what we have determined to be a reasonable costing estimate for the lines we are proposing. It is divided into two parts: total for all projects, and total for the priority projects. The goal is to have the priority projects come in under $15 billion, to stay on par with TC.

Let the debating and pointing out errors begin, haha. I'm not an expert when it comes to costing, so if you see anything that looks out of place, please let me know.

A few points:

1) Sheppard LRT, Agincourt to Meadowvale. The cost of 100 M/km is probably overstated. It is in-median and the street is wide, can't see why it should be more expensive than regular 70 M/km.

The Transit City's SELRT is costed at 1,189 million; if the cost of Agincourt - Meadowvale segment was 930 million, then the cost of Don Mills - Agincourt segment would be only 259 million - which is unlikely since it includes 1 km of tunnel and a large underground station. If Don Mills - Agincourt costs more, then Agincourt - Meadowvale should cost less.

2) Sheppard LRT, 1.9 km Malvern Centre spur. That one would probably costs more than 70 M/km, since sound-protection has to be insured.

3) It is a little odd to extend the BD subway to STC, but not provide a direct link from there to Malvern Centre. IMO, there should be either LRT from STC via Centennial to Malvern, or BRT on the same route.

4) DRL East (Danforth to Spadina) may be more than 320 M/km, because of the very complex downtown section (existing subways, utilities, PATH etc).

5) It is a little odd to end Don Mills LRT at Finch rather than at Steeles.

6) Kipling BRT from Kipling Stn to Eglinton is in Priority list, the rest of Kipling is not. I can guess the reason - connection to Mississauga BRT - but suggest to mention that in the Remarks.

7) "Kipling" section, BRT on Lakeshore from Kipling to Long Branch in-median, "Shares dedicated lanes with streetcar": This is impossible (at least for 10 M/km) since dedicated lanes for streetcars do not exist there. Streetcars run in mixed traffic in that section. I'd consider removing that 2.4 km BRT section from the plan.

Instead, you could add a short (about 1.5 km) LRT tunnel from Roncesvalles to a DRL West station (probably at Queen and Dufferin). Effectively, this transforms the whole streetcar line to Long Branch to LRT. The Queensway section runs in a ROW, the Lakeshore section runs in mixed traffic but there is little congestion.

Assuming 1.5 km for 250 M/km, it would be +375 million to the whole plan; but this will add to the non-priority section.

 

[kEiThZ]

Rainforest,

A few points. We've been pondering in the group about the need for a BRT or LRT from STC to Malvern. Here's the way I look at it...It's not a priority. A BRT would effectively only serve the Progress bus. Even if there was a LRT to Malvern, Milner, Nugget, Morningside and Neilson would not see their routes changed since they serve far more than Malvern. So why not leave them for now? The Neilson bus would benefit from the Ellesmere BRT. You could also split Morningside and have these routes start at STC, use the EBRT and turn North or South from there. Nugget and Milner could benefit, if and when, curbside bus lanes are added to McCowan. But in all these cases, BRT would shave mere minutes off (at best 3-4 mins from a 23 min average bus ride from MTC to STC). Far more is being saved by knocking off the transfer and increasing the speed of these riders' trip to Kennedy.

Also, I see demand from Malvern to downtown being split by the extension of the SELRT to MTC. To Union via Sheppard is going to be: 17 mins on LRT, 21 mins on the Sheppard subway, 25 mins on YUS and two transfers (10 mins) for a total of 73 mins. This compares to 80 mins and 3 transfers currently using buses to STC, the SRT and the BD line. The extension of the Bloor-Danforth subway will remove one transfer. This will basically bring both routes to Union on par for trip time. Anybody who has a destination a few stops north of union or riders who don't live near Malvern Town centre, would probably use STC. Other riders will probably use Sheppard. The SRT extension would have been a bit more advantages (it would have save 15 mins from Malvern). However, we are delivering about half of that in time savings from for most riders through the improvements being provided for Malvern. That's not to say that a Progress LRT isn't a good idea. It's one I fully support enthusiastically. And I would have preferred it to a Sheppard LRT. But our hands are forced on this one, so it can wait, other concerns are more pressing.

Don Mills I agree with you. It should go to Steeles. This is particularly important given York Regions desire to continue the LRT past Steeles. We've been debating what to do with the Finch East portion though. It wasn't originally in Transit City. We'd like to go back to that vision. But with Metrolinx so instant on their giant northern crosstown LRT, we feel like our hands are tied here.

 

[reaperexpress]

A couple questions about the Eglinton LRT:
Why is the section from Kingston Rd. to Kennedy a priority?
It sounds like the whole thing is more or less grade separated: why not make it a subway? That would reduce costs in the tunneled section because it uses a 5.2m diameter, as opposed to 6.0m diameter for the LRT tunnel.

 

[kEiThZ]

A couple questions about the Eglinton LRT:
Why is the section from Kingston Rd. to Kennedy a priority?
It sounds like the whole thing is more or less grade separated: why not make it a subway? That would reduce costs in the tunneled section because it uses a 5.2m diameter, as opposed to 6.0m diameter for the LRT tunnel.

1) We wanted to finish the whole thing in one go. This makes Eglinton a true cross-town route. With a ton of grade separation, it will rival the Bloor-Danforth subway for a lot of trips.

2) The way this city builds subway it means that we'll be spending 300 million per km or more. This is why we had to go to LRT. Our old plan cut short on Eglinton a bit, but had a subway there instead.

 

[Rainforest]

A few points. We've been pondering in the group about the need for a BRT or LRT from STC to Malvern. Here's the way I look at it...It's not a priority. A BRT would effectively only serve the Progress bus. Even if there was a LRT to Malvern, Milner, Nugget, Morningside and Neilson would not see their routes changed since they serve far more than Malvern. So why not leave them for now? The Neilson bus would benefit from the Ellesmere BRT. You could also split Morningside and have these routes start at STC, use the EBRT and turn North or South from there. Nugget and Milner could benefit, if and when, curbside bus lanes are added to McCowan. But in all these cases, BRT would shave mere minutes off (at best 3-4 mins from a 23 min average bus ride from MTC to STC). Far more is being saved by knocking off the transfer and increasing the speed of these riders' trip to Kennedy.

Also, I see demand from Malvern to downtown being split by the extension of the SELRT to MTC. To Union via Sheppard is going to be: 17 mins on LRT, 21 mins on the Sheppard subway, 25 mins on YUS and two transfers (10 mins) for a total of 73 mins. This compares to 80 mins and 3 transfers currently using buses to STC, the SRT and the BD line. The extension of the Bloor-Danforth subway will remove one transfer. This will basically bring both routes to Union on par for trip time. Anybody who has a destination a few stops north of union or riders who don't live near Malvern Town centre, would probably use STC. Other riders will probably use Sheppard. The SRT extension would have been a bit more advantages (it would have save 15 mins from Malvern). However, we are delivering about half of that in time savings from for most riders through the improvements being provided for Malvern. That's not to say that a Progress LRT isn't a good idea. It's one I fully support enthusiastically. And I would have preferred it to a Sheppard LRT. But our hands are forced on this one, so it can wait, other concerns are more pressing.

I see the point. But note that when you draw your lines on the map, you will have BD subway terminating at STC, and a gap from there to Sheppard.

Perhaps it would be worth adding Progress LRT, at least as a non-priority route. Then the map will not have that gap, and Centennial College will not be left out.

 

[Rainforest]

Cost of the Yonge - Downsview subway segment

I looked at the Metrolinx's "Sheppard-Finch LRT Benefits Case" study. Table 7 (page 35) lists the capital costs of the 5 options considered, in 2008 dollars. Let's compare Option 1 (separate Finch West and Sheppard East lines, no subway extension) to Option 4 (Sheppard subway extended to Downsview, and Finch LRT goes to Downsview instead of Yonge / Finch).

Option 1 is costed at 2,220 million, Option 4 at 3,650 million.

LRT in Option 4 is 2 km shorter (Finch / Dufferin to Sheppard / Alness, rather than to Finch / Yonge), and hence should cost 2 x 70 = 140 million less.

So, the cost of subway (Yonge / Sheppard to Downsview): 3,650 - (2,220 - 140) = 1,570 million in 2008 dollars.

 

[Rainforest]

Length of Eglinton LRT

I made measurements using map.toronto.ca, and it looks like the length of Kennedy - Kingston segment is slightly understated in your table. I've got 4.8 km, while your table gives 4.4 km. Please double-check.

For the rest of Eglinton route, my measurements are consistent with your table. However, the result (29.8 km) is smaller than what's given in TTC's latest Display Boards ("approximately 33 km"). I don't know the reason.

Maybe it has to do with the route between Martin Grove and the Airport - TTC is planning a detour via Renforth and Silver Dart.

 

[urbandreamer]

What if I don't support either proposal?

I think all subway and transit construction should be halted for 25 years. During this period, private developers, corporations etc could develop around and buy rights to future subway stations. No parking would be allowed in these buildings. In exchange for density and lack of red tape (developers could build anything they wanted, so long as they met Design Review Panel needs), developers would pay funds towards construction of future transit (stations, whatever.)

And get this--transit would be provided by private companies! Eglinton line could be owned by different company than Yonge line, for example.

 

[Rainforest]

What if I don't support either proposal?

I think all subway and transit construction should be halted for 25 years. During this period, private developers, corporations etc could develop around and buy rights to future subway stations. No parking would be allowed in these buildings. In exchange for density and lack of red tape (developers could build anything they wanted, so long as they met Design Review Panel needs), developers would pay funds towards construction of future transit (stations, whatever.)

From a private investor standpoint, this looks like a risky business. What if a company pays up and builds a bunch of condos at, say, Eglinton and Royal York in anticipation of subway, but the total amount of money collected from all investors is not sufficient to extend the subway to Royal York?