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Who is Buying All These Condos? 70% owners 30% investors

Does this calculation include Equity, inflation and property value gains?

Arnold, I like to keep things as simple as possible. I am merely calculating the expected return on the cost of owning a $800 per square foot unit in Toronto. On a large scale, I assume that a 1000 sq. ft. apartment would rent for $2,250 per month. I've factored in a vacancy reserves and commission in that number. While I admit many units could rent for a greater amount, I think on average, across a large sample of units, that number is accurate.

A true apple to apples comparison assumes no financing. Besides, in this instance the cost of financing is greater than the return from the property so it would only worsen the return. I'm looking at the projected return based on today's market so inflation is irrelevant. I think it is more than fair to assume that inflation will more than eat away at any appreciation seen in values for these kinds of assets. In fact, given the rapid rise in prices that we have seen since 2005 I would expect values to fall in real terms going forward.
 
Ok, lets do the math - and not assume that inflation will eat away property price increases. Equity is the goal with buy-to-rent and its a long term hold.


INFLATION:
http://www.indexmundi.com/canada/inflation_rate_(consumer_prices).html
Year Inflation rate (consumer prices)
2003 2.20 %
2004 2.80 %
2005 1.90 %
2006 2.20 %
2007 2.00 %

PROPERTY PRICE INCREASE:

http://www.zimbio.com/Toronto+Real+Estate/articles/441/ORES+North+Toronto+Condo+Index

The index starts at 100 with the 1st of January 2004 being the date of commencement. The final reported day is the 31st of October 2007. On that date, the Index had reached 119.39. In simple terms, that is a 19.39% increase over that time period.

So, if you purchased a $300,000 residential condo on 1 January 2004, it would now be worth $358,170. The time period is almost 4 years, so that’s almost 5% per annum.

And, historically, a 5% per annum increase is what we can expect for real estate performance over long periods of time.

For purposes of comparison, the ORES Condo Index is as follows:

Downtown Core 153.06.
Toronto East 121.04
Toronto North 125.36

Conclusion:
my 2% return on the condo is icing on the cake, my profit is in Equity.
 

You use a broker's blog to predict future condo prices? LOL! Are you that naive? The NASDAQ index climbed steadily for years until it burst into flames in 2000. Think that the frothy condo market is immune from the same speculative herd mentality?

Anyone who thinks that Toronto condo prices in 2007 will outpace inflation over the next 10 years needs to give me their money to invest. If your return expectations are that low then there's no way my fund's performance could ever disappoint you.

Let me educate you there kid- RISK CAPITAL MUST BE REWARDED. What do you think drives real estate values? Hint: INCOME. And while I wouldn't expect you rookies to be able to derive the kind of returns from investment that someone like myself would be able to generate (you are all small-time amateurs after all) you do deserve to be properly compensated for the risks that you're assuming, risks that obviously have no concept of because you are probably too young to recall any kind of real estate contraction.

Well, look South for a little primer on what's to come in Toronto. You think our lenders haven't been just as aggressive as the US ones? Just wait! I think CMHC 0% down mortgages are just as toxic as many of the sub-prime products that have decimated so many markets.

Wake up kid, your appreciation is a thing of the past.
 
It's not a question of ego or self-confidence. It's a question of logic and common sense.

While the market can (and does) defy rationale economic principals in the short term, over the long run it will return its historic norms as it is doing right now in the bubblier markets across North America.

Toronto, while a wonderful, exciting, dynamic, and growing city, is not immune to market forces. Specuvestors, looking only for a quick buck, will suffer.
 
Investor.. I would still like to see the inflastion and equaty added to you calculations..

Arnold,

We are at an impasse. You and the majority of people on this forum believe that condo prices will increase over the next several years. I believe that condo prices will probably decrease and certainly not keep pace with inflation due to the enormous amount of speculation.

Although prices have increased steadily during the recent boom, past performance is absolutely no assurance of future performance. The market will determine the price, not the consultants paid to talk up the market.
 
an article in today's Globe and Mail about Luxury Condo sale in Toronto

A market that's generally immune to downturns
International buyers of Toronto's upscale suites see great value compared with major centres elsewhere
Article Comments TERRENCE BELFORD

From Friday's Globe and Mail

E-mail
January 30, 2009 at 12:00 AM EST

If you are looking for a single sign that shows just how the condominium market has changed in this decade, take a look at the profusion of luxury projects, especially the often dazzling penthouses that crown their summits.

We have gone from almost a standing start in 2000 to a total of 13 buildings now on sale, almost all in the city of Toronto where the price a square foot starts at an impressive $881. But that's just entry level. The average price, according to RealNet Canada Inc., is $1,258, and those at the top end weight in at $1,900 plus.

Granted, $2-million can buy a large one-bedroom with a den or a slightly larger two-bedroom suite in many of these palaces, but at the top end you are looking at price tags nearing the gross domestic product of small Pacific islands.

Take the 10,000-square-foot penthouse at the top of the Ritz Carlton just west of the downtown business district. It went for between $14-million and $15-million, according to May Sheardown, the veteran agent with Baker Real Estate Inc. who sold it. Right now, she is working on a deal for the $28-million penthouse at 1 Bloor, the iconic new project at Bloor and Yonge streets, which when completed will be Canada's tallest residential structure.

At Minto Midtown, there are eight huge penthouse suites for sale. One, a 3,400-square-foot palace in the sky has been turned into a model suite by designer Dan Menchions. And it is just one of the two that occupy the top floor of Midtown's 40-storey south tower.

Price is negotiable, but the buyer will likely not see much change from $7-million.

So, is there a market for luxury suites, especially those in the ultrahigh-end price range?

The answer seems to be yes — inevitably.

One of the things that separates luxury suites from their mid-market contemporaries is that they take longer to build and longer to sell. But if past experience is a measure, the 466 true luxury suites still on the market will find buyers within the next few years.

The chief reason — in past at least — is that men and women willing and able to plunk down anywhere from $2.5-million to $30-million for a new condo have established wealth, and the ability to weather economic cycles. When they decide to buy a condo, the decision is lifestyle-driven and not linked to economic factors.

"Right back to the 1980s, monthly sales of luxury condos have varied little in either boom times or bad times," says Jane Renwick, executive vice-president of Urbanation Inc., which tracks luxury projects. "The range is between about 2.6 and 2.9 sales a month. Granted, there were fewer properties on the market back then, but those average sales stayed within that narrow range."

At the same time, Ms. Renwick says, the current economic downturn seems to have thrown sales for a loop.

"There has just been no activity in the luxury market since November," she says. "People are indeed holding off right now."

But maybe not all would-be buyers, suggests Ms. Sheardown. Her success in selling luxury condos has been built on strong contacts and relationships with international buyers. The Ritz penthouse, for example, went to an Asian buyer and the prospect for 1 Bloor's summit hails from Asia as well.

Even in the lower range — the $2-million to $3-million suites — a fair number of buyers are foreigners looking for a base in Toronto, where they already — or hope — to do business.

At 100 Yorkville, Ms. Sheardown sold, among other units, a $2-million, two-bedroom suite to a Hollywood type who regularly visits the city on business.

"What Asian and other international buyers see is an emerging global trade centre in Toronto," she says. "They want a home that speaks to their success and standing in the business community."

As well, Toronto's luxury suites seem great value compared with major centres elsewhere.

"I think what we are seeing now is a hiccough," she says. "The luxury market seems to be largely immune from the ups and downs of the economy. Buyers in the $2-million-plus range make decisions based on lifestyle changes or demands, not on finances. They have enough wealth to be largely insulated from those swings."

That hiccough is unlikely to see developers cutting prices on luxury suites, suggests RealNet president George Carras. Instead they will simply accept projects will take longer to sell than planned.

But will they sell?

As Mr. Carras points out, "As long as there are 466 people in an area of more than two million willing and able to sign a cheque for $2-million and up, demand for luxury suites will continue strong."
 
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well said Investor.

I find it strange that anyone could possibly think that property values could go up in the next yr or two. Also your statement deserves repeating:

"past performance is absolutely no assurance of future performance". What real relevance is it that property has gone up 5% historically? catch the market at the wrong entry point and your historical avg sure wont be 5%. Also, its more improtant to see why exactly the market was up 5%; and see if those factors are still at play
 
PROPERTY PRICE INCREASE:

http://www.zimbio.com/Toronto+Real+Estate/articles/441/ORES+North+Toronto+Condo+Index

The index starts at 100 with the 1st of January 2004 being the date of commencement. The final reported day is the 31st of October 2007. On that date, the Index had reached 119.39. In simple terms, that is a 19.39% increase over that time period.

So, if you purchased a $300,000 residential condo on 1 January 2004, it would now be worth $358,170. The time period is almost 4 years, so that’s almost 5% per annum.

And, historically, a 5% per annum increase is what we can expect for real estate performance over long periods of time.

For purposes of comparison, the ORES Condo Index is as follows:

Downtown Core 153.06.


That pretty much proves that TO Downtown core was in a bubble with an average 11.5% CPA return.


investor said:
Let me educate you there kid- RISK CAPITAL MUST BE REWARDED. What do you think drives real estate values? Hint: INCOME. And while I wouldn't expect you rookies to be able to derive the kind of returns from investment that someone like myself would be able to generate (you are all small-time amateurs after all) you do deserve to be properly compensated for the risks that you're assuming, risks that obviously have no concept of because you are probably too young to recall any kind of real estate contraction.

What % return would you consider appropriate for the risks associated with RE investment?
 
What % return would you consider appropriate for the risks associated with RE investment?

I won't speak on residential condos and their "increasing value" because frankly I think the potential rewards are limited in the long run. Real estate investments should be based on cash flows and in very few scenarios does a new construction condo work out to be a positive cash flow.

But I'm involved in commercial real estate investing and our minimum buy criteria must meet a 10 cap. And generally we try to incorporate a recapture in one form or another (either in the buy, or from the tenant we put in) to pay for improvements.

In layman's terms, we look for a minimum return of 10% annually assuming the property was bought in cash with no financing. Obviously that changes when the property is financed by the bank. In some of our properties we make 100% ROI/ann. It all depends on how much capital you have tied up in the deal.
 
I won't speak on residential condos and their "increasing value" because frankly I think the potential rewards are limited in the long run. Real estate investments should be based on cash flows and in very few scenarios does a new construction condo work out to be a positive cash flow.

But I'm involved in commercial real estate investing and our minimum buy criteria must meet a 10 cap. And generally we try to incorporate a recapture in one form or another (either in the buy, or from the tenant we put in) to pay for improvements.

In layman's terms, we look for a minimum return of 10% annually assuming the property was bought in cash with no financing. Obviously that changes when the property is financed by the bank. In some of our properties we make 100% ROI/ann. It all depends on how much capital you have tied up in the deal.


Really 10% - 100% ROI ??!! Is that net?
Is that even possible in Toronto?

So if you bought a property for $500K, you'd get a minimum of $50K NET ???
 
that's net without financing.

i agree with bentley, a 10 cap a good place to start. which is still almost impossible to find in the downtown core.
 
as Spongebob said to Plankton's plans to rule the world: "Well... Good luck with that!"
 

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