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What to do in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Many pilots sign up for the education as well as technicians and engineers. For pilots the air force is one of the best routes to a commercial airline job because of the number of flight hours. I'm not sure if there would be as many joining for educational purposes in other parts of the force.
 
In a lot of areas of the US, people had been enlisting because it is the only way answer to high unemployment and a complete lack of job prospects. It has been regarded as the only way out of a dead end (aside from crime), and the only way to get a higher education. It is referred to as the "economic draft".
That's nothing new; it's the same reason the poor have joined the armed forces for centuries. And, as it has always been, once you join, you give up your choice of where and when to serve.
 
Has no one else read the numerous articles over the past months about recruitment tactics that the Americans are using to get people into the forces? There is a huge pressure, and so many bonuses for recruiting, and as BuildTO reports, no recourse for the recruits once they have joined, so that the recruiters will say almost anything and leave almost any impression to sign people up. I understand they are also told they can "change their minds" about joining and reconsider after a few months.

As for the bigger issue, I agree with BuildTO that believing that we can achieve a democracy is Iraq (or, indeed, that that is a goal) is naive. Is there a possible way that the American presence can be removed so that invasion/civil war is not the result? I have no clue, frankly, how to accomplish this. I'm under no illusions that if the US were to pull out immediately the country would descend into an even worse chaos, but perhaps that's the only route to a lasting resolution of the problem.
 
Archvis:

I think believing that we can achieve a democracy in Iraq within a short period of time (years, vs. decades), with a minimal number of lives lost and limited funding is indeed naive. But what's the alternative? Likely millions killed, possiblity of unrest in the entire region to no end. The problem isn't likely to solve itself.

Just what does Iraqis themselves want, exactly (other than getting the Americans out)? Without knowing that as a people (if they are "a people"), it's going to be grief all around.

GB
 
There is a huge pressure, and so many bonuses for recruiting, and as BuildTO reports, no recourse for the recruits once they have joined, so that the recruiters will say almost anything and leave almost any impression to sign people up.
Again, nothing new here; recruiters have been doing that since man took to arms.

What has changed is the enormous amount of info available through both the formal and informal media; leaving no excuse for some poor boob to say I didn't know what I was getting into to. In fact, this is likely why recruitment is down, since the potential recruits know full well what they're getting into, and staying away. Good for them, they're making an informed choice.
 
I don't actually believe we can "make" Iraq a democracy, in any substantial way, ever. Even if I were to believe this was a genuine goal of the US (which I don't) and even if I were to believe that the US was capable of setting up a system that is responsive to the Iraq situation and yet allow for the kinds of institutions that democracy needs (which I don't) I still think it will fail. Perhaps there's some way of setting up a provision government, eventually phased out, but I don't see how.
 
The ironic thing of course is that by invading Iraq, the US has basically radicalized the country and made the possiblity of stability that much lower. Of course, they're more interested in oil and the strategic advantage of Iraq than what happened to its' people.

GB
 
"Peacekeepers no more"


Canuck soldiers off to fiery Kandahar could be locked into losing war

By STEVEN STAPLES
NOW | JULY 28 - AUGUST 3, 2005 | VOL. 24 NO. 48

www.nowtoronto.com/issues...story2.php


The Liberal government has forged a new link in the chains that increasingly bind our Canadian Forces to the Pentagon.

Last week, the first Canadian soldiers departed on Canada's new, more aggressive role in Afghanistan under U.S. command as part of Operation Enduring Freedom. Their mission is to prepare the ground in the strife-ridden southern city of Kandahar to receive the more than 2,000 Canadian troops and secret commandos who will arrive over the next 12 months.

The irony is that Canadian soldiers are deploying with the American war effort at a time when even the Pentagon acknowledges there may be no military solution in Afghanistan, but only a political one. This admission has opened the door to U.S. negotiations with the Taliban.

This new mission for the Canadian Forces in Afghanistan could be a ticking time bomb for the Liberals.

If things go badly, many soldiers could be returning in coffins, killed in a war that has little, if any, meaning for most Canadians. Even worse, it could result in Canada becoming the target of a major terrorist attack here at home.

The car bombs and suicide attacks so commonplace in Iraq are now spilling over into Afghanistan. The CIA acknowledges that Iraq has become a magnet for terrorist organizations and serves as a recruiting, training and staging ground for operations throughout the region. Taliban and al Qaeda attacks are becoming more frequent, and Canadian troops may find themselves in the same quagmire as the Americans in Iraq.

Without doubt, the government is taking a big risk. As a Foreign Affairs official told reporters, Canada is opening a new chapter in Afghanistan, and Defence Minister Bill Graham is warning Canadians to expect casualties.

The U.S. has lost 36 soldiers in Afghanistan already this year, the highest death toll since the invasion. Seven Canadian soldiers have been killed there since 2001.

There's little doubt that terrorists seeking revenge for Canada's occupation of Afghanistan will see our country as a target. That's why, in the wake of the terrible attacks against London, Public Safety Minister Anne McClellan took every opportunity to remind Canadians that we could be next.

In effect, the government is trying to prepare Canadians for the worst, in the hope that if something awful, such as a bomb exploding on the TTC, does happen, Canadians won't hold the Liberals responsible.

To be sure, the average Canadian has little idea what the government is getting us into. Andrew Sullivan from the polling firm EKOS Research said recently, "We still subscribe to the anachronistic view of [our soldiers as] peacekeepers…. It's an image that people cling to pretty tenaciously."

And this is the dilemma the government faces. On the one hand, Paul Martin wants to push Canada toward deeper security integration with the U.S., a move applauded by his big-business backers and Canada's defence lobby.

But to get the Canadian public to embrace the aggressive U.S. approach to warfare, taking on its risks, the government will have to convince Canadians to give up the notion of Canada as a peacekeeper.

Canadians won't be able to fight alongside Americans and still maintain the aura of peacekeepers.

Peggy Mason, Canada's former ambassador for disarmament and arms control affairs at the United Nations and an expert on peacekeeping, says the differences between U.S. war-waging and Canadian peacekeeping are irreconcilable. "The American war fighters operate on the basis of overwhelming force and making deals with local warlords where it is deemed expedient to do so," says Mason. "These forces were not helping to build the peace.... Their objective is the elimination of the Taliban and serving the perceived security interests of the United States."

James Dobbins, President Bush's first envoy to Afghanistan, agrees with Mason. He says the U.S. suffers from "a generally negative appreciation of peacekeeping and nation building as components of U.S. policy, a disinclination to learn anything from… Bosnia and Kosovo." Furthermore, "the U.S. focus on force protection and substitution of firepower for manpower creates significant collateral damage [i.e., civilian deaths]."

It is the adoption of the U.S. attitude by Canadian soldiers that should be most alarming for the Liberals, and indeed all Canadians.

We were given an insight into this shift when Martin's choice to lead the military, General Rick Hillier, explained his views on the upcoming peacekeeping mission to reporters: "We are the Canadian Forces, and our job is to be able to kill people."

Hillier's controversial remarks won high praise from newspaper editorialists and political leaders alike – even NDP leader Jack Layton.

If the day has arrived when the NDP agrees with the Conservatives, then perhaps Paul Martin has little to worry about as he closes the book on Canadian involvement in UN peacekeeping and instead links arms with the Pentagon and the global war on terrorism.
 
With the mess that Iraq is, and will be, for some time to come, check out the book "Dying to Win" by Robert Pape for an insight into the logic of suicide bombing. The impetus lies not with fundamentalism, but with occupation.
 
The ironic thing of course is that by invading Iraq, the US has basically radicalized the country and made the possiblity of stability that much lower.

Yup. Iraq was quite a modern secular state, even if it was run by a tyrant. It's gone to shit now... who knows how long it will take to repair.

Of course, they're more interested in oil and the strategic advantage of Iraq than what happened to its' people.

Yes, your standard short-term thinking by America. But now they have to deal with Iraqi terrorists, perhaps one day on their own soil... a threat that simply did not exist before. Idiotic.

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Perhaps the most ironic of all things is that, the U.S. encouraged weapons proliferation as much as they discouraged it, by invading Iraq. Are Iran and North Korea any less inclined to pursue weapons of mass destruction because of the inavsion of Iraq? No they're not, because countries who don't have nuclear weapons of mass destruction and are nowhere near having them get invaded (Iraq), whereas countries who do or are close to getting them (North Korea and Iran), get to negotiate. It is true that Libya ostensibly gave up its WMD program; however, between Iran, North Korea, and Libya the latter of these three is the least of America's strategic worries.
 
Are Iran and North Korea any less inclined to pursue weapons of mass destruction because of the inavsion of Iraq? No they're not, because countries who don't have nuclear weapons of mass destruction and are nowhere near having them get invaded (Iraq), whereas countries who do or are close to getting them (North Korea and Iran), get to negotiate.

That's a good point.
 
The way I see it, either the US gets out now, saying it got rid of a terrible dictator and set up Iraq for democracy, leaving it to the Iraqis to work out their differences; or it can get out later, after much more bloodshed and carnage, leaving it to the Iraqis to work out their differences.

Someday, the US will be forced to reckon with the fact that the insecurity is now an Iraqi problem. Sure, the US caused the insecurity; sure it is responsible. But the US has not shown that it can solve the problem. How many more bodybags will be filled before America learns this lesson? It took 50,000 bodybags to learn in Vietnam.

The Iraqis will deal with the problem in their own way; it may not be pretty either. Whatever the results of the constitution vote, there will always be a tendency for the Shia south to go one way, the Kurdish north (already semiautonomous) to pursue its own agenda and the Sunni centre and west to be left behind. Is the US really going to change centuries of differences over the next 2 months? the next 2 years? the next 20 years?!
 
Sometime in the next few days the US will officially pass the 2000 dead mark. I suspect the media will jump all over that.

Or it will simply get buried among Washington rumour mill stories, hurricanes, NBA bling, missing white girls and water skiing squirrels.
 

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