News   May 07, 2024
 303     0 
News   May 07, 2024
 293     1 
News   May 07, 2024
 798     3 

What does "underinsured" mean in the US?

Brandon716

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
May 12, 2007
Messages
1,428
Reaction score
0
Location
Niagara Region
As many of you know, health care is the number one concern of mine domestically when speaking of national policy. I want to encourage Canadians to cherish the health care system, because if you are to lose it then it will be gone forever. Luckily I don't think that will ever happen, but it still is worth reinforcing the fact that universal care needs to remain truly universal and free of direct charge.

I don't like to bring too personal of issues into the public realm, but here is the reality of what "under-insured" means. Under-insured really is a term in the US that makes no sense, because I technically had enough coverage, they just refuse to pay based on insurance company opinion.

Here is an example of a rejection letter I got for payment of a service I received in February:

scan0001.jpg


That is the reality of American health care. This is just a denial for the imaging, every other item was denied as well... I don't have any outstanding major health problems, I had a "good" PPO insurance policy from Highmark Blue Shield (a so-called non-profit private health insurance company in one of the largest national networks), and I only received this service after the doctor and his team verified I had insurance. If someone walked in without insurance, it is likely they would not have received the services I got unless they went to an ER instead. PPO plans are considered the gold standard and are far better than HMO's. You can walk into a specialist's office without a referral, like the HMO requires, as long as they are in the PPO's network coverage area.

Here is an explanation of the process: I received a rejection letter for payment at the end of March within a month of the procedure (it was completed in February) that I originally had to schedule in January, I filed an appeal the next day with the doctor I received help from. Their office forwarded with a fax all the relevant information to let Highmark Blue Shield know that it was not a pre-existing condition.

Instead the final appeal still came back with a denial and another form to do another appeal if I wanted... As if that would help.

As you can obviously see, this particular policy claims that they don't have to pay anything for the first 5 years of coverage. That means I pay them hundreds of dollars a month for 5 years before they are required to pay anything, they can reject any care based on a pre-existing condition clause REGARDLESS whether there is any validity to the cause.

I'm a middle class American by birth, I had health insurance, and since the insurance company denied payment I am going to get a collections for $2,100 out of this very simple procedure.

...and I have no major ongoing health problems or concerns. I feel terribly sorry for the working poor who have no insurance, and I feel for those with serious health conditions that require regular care. This post is in no way a pity party for myself, I'm healthy and fine (albeit with a huge collections bill coming my way). My anger is at the US health 'system' and those with more serious health concerns, like my mother who has diabetes.

This is the reality of American health care, and why its a crisis. This is not to mention those who have no insurance. And besides that, this is why Americans are sicker than our western peers: we are afraid to visit the doctor because we go bankrupt with endless bills that hit our credit reports when we seek care.

I was unable to go back for a follow-up visit as the doctor demanded payment before my checkup in May. While its not a major medical issue, it would have been nice to go for the followup.

I possibly wouldn't have been rejected if I had a corporate-backed plan, but I am an independent contractor and my policy isn't backed by a corporate or government job. Even still, certain care is denied under corporate or gov't backed plans.

Hopefully this helps give people insight as to the problems that lie south of the border and the slippery slope that is private care. Its too expensive and too anti-health even for the job holding middle class with health insurance coverage.

Canada needs to avoid this travesty at all costs.
 
Last edited:
Wow...what an unbelievable story. And $2,100 for an x-ray! Even more shocking...the onus appears to be on you to prove that the condition is not preexisting. Unless you can somehow prove that you didn't have the condition five years ago, you can't be covered. Of course you can't prove a negative.

What drives me absolutely insane is that Americans trying to attack the Canadian system always claim that Canadians don't have "choice" and a government bureaucrat decides what health care we can receive. It shows quite clearly that Americans can't conceive of a health care world outside of their own experience. Private insurance plans have endless non-medical employees telling them what care they can and cannot receive. They cannot conceive of a government-run plan without bureaucrats telling them what they can and cannot receive. Of course, as any Canadian knows, we can go to whatever hospital we like and we receive any treatment that a doctor prescribes. No insurance company official or government official tells us that the treatment our doctor prescribed will not be covered.

Unfortunately the inverse is also true. Canadians just can't begin to imagine how bad the American system actually is, even for people who are supposedly fully insured. The only experience most Canadians have with the American medical system is with travel medical insurance. The travel insurance that we buy at CAA or the bank is far, far better than quite literally any insurance plan than any American could hope to buy. It allows the traveler to use any hospital or doctor he or she chooses. That's of course because it only covers emergency needs.
 
Wow...what an unbelievable story. And $2,100 for an x-ray! Even more shocking...the onus appears to be on you to prove that the condition is not preexisting. Unless you can somehow prove that you didn't have the condition five years ago, you can't be covered. Of course you can't prove a negative.

What drives me absolutely insane is that Americans trying to attack the Canadian system always claim that Canadians don't have "choice" and a government bureaucrat decides what health care we can receive. It shows quite clearly that Americans can't conceive of a health care world outside of their own experience. Private insurance plans have endless non-medical employees telling them what care they can and cannot receive. They cannot conceive of a government-run plan without bureaucrats telling them what they can and cannot receive. Of course, as any Canadian knows, we can go to whatever hospital we like and we receive any treatment that a doctor prescribes. No insurance company official or government official tells us that the treatment our doctor prescribed will not be covered.

Unfortunately the inverse is also true. Canadians just can't begin to imagine how bad the American system actually is, even for people who are supposedly fully insured. The only experience most Canadians have with the American medical system is with travel medical insurance. The travel insurance that we buy at CAA or the bank is far, far better than quite literally any insurance plan than any American could hope to buy. It allows the traveler to use any hospital or doctor he or she chooses. That's of course because it only covers emergency needs.

Travel insurance covers the medical expenses ABOVE the provincial coverage. If one travels in the United States without the travel insurance, the provincial coverage is very small. People go bankrupt in the States because of the medical expenses.
 
Yea, but the funny thing is that I was an insured middle class income earner and I deal with this nonsense. My feelings are with those who don't even have insurance...

^^BTW it was $2600 total for all services (not just the x-ray), they denied all payments at first until i appealed, and they only decided to pay $400 so I was left with $2100/2200 in medical bills.

This denial letter was just for the x-ray portion, and that was only a few hundred dollars of the total.

All of it is totally pathetic, I don't even have a major medical issue. People who have chronic conditions go bankrupt so easily.
 
I've heard the statistic that the US already spends more per capita on 'public health care' through Medicare, etc. than Canada does, yet it only covers veterans and old people. I'm not sure I buy that claim, and it seems hard to test.
 
I've heard the statistic that the US already spends more per capita on 'public health care' through Medicare, etc. than Canada does, yet it only covers veterans and old people. I'm not sure I buy that claim, and it seems hard to test.

Its true, just the public funding structure is more than what Canada spends, and private is on top of that.

Remember that gov't health spending is above and beyond Medicare and Medicaid. There are programs to cover kids (SCHIP), programs to fund public health clinics, funds to do a lot of things independent of Medicare/Medicaid.

Americans also pay a special health care tax via a payroll tax. Its listed as a FICA tax along with Social Security. This is why the US has no national sales tax, there are higher payroll and other taxes to business to fund these programs.

The policies are so hard to compare, but its very true that the US has more public funding of health than Canada yet cannot achieve it due to the for-profit motive found in the US system.
 
Here is a prime example of the different taxation structure.

New York state pay stub including tax withholding
source: www.paycheckcity.com
Scenario: 0 additional exemptions, 40,000 yearly income

Province of Ontario pay stub including tax withholding
source: http://www.paycheckcity.com/canada/coeatonca/cacalculator.aspx
Scenario: 0 additional exemptions, 40,000 yearly income

ny_ont_tax.gif



As you can see, the tax difference is slight, but the difference in the US is that we have a dedicated payroll tax for medical services, but Americans don't receive the service.

As usual, its why most Americans are uber-cynical about the government. Americans pay taxes for programs they'll never get.
 
Here are some other tax structures from various states. As you can tell, New York certainly doesn't have higher taxes than most states. And quite frankly these differences are mostly insignificant, except for the few states that don't levy state income taxes.

moretax.gif


As you can tell, most states have an average tax rate similar to one another; however, Tennessee (where I grew up) levies no state level wage income tax.

However, Tennessee also has a 10% sales tax which is rather high for the US and considerably higher property taxes. Texas is another state that levies no state level income tax, so you see the higher net pay using that example. But again, Texas has a higher than average sales tax and considerably higher property taxes.

A $200,000 property in some Dallas suburbs may have as much as $6,000 in yearly property tax, for example. The Dallas-area suburb of Southlake, Texas has a median property tax rate per year of over $7,000, and median incomes are $48k per year. This is far and above what most Canadians pay, and its the price they pay for not having a state levied income tax.

...that $200 more per monthly paycheck doesn't seem like much of a savings by contrast.

And one thing is consistent no matter where you live: the same dedicated Medicare health tax that we pay yet receive no universal health benefits. A tax that cannot be used in general funds and must be used for medical care, yet we don't have a universal program.
 
Last edited:
Yikes I'm sorry you had to go through that Brandon.

I was always under the impression that the Americans most vocal about being against universal healthcare, were the ones who truly believe that a system that ignores insurance is the best.

As an example, these people think that if they have a real problem then they can pull up to the Mayo Clinic, give them a cheque and have their problem fixed that same day. Since under a universal system, they'd have to wait in line like everyone else, and wouldn't have the option of paying top dollar for whatever it is they want to do (whether it is speeded up annual physical, or getting a MRI and ACL repair the same day) the universal system sucks.

Of course either these people are very, very wealthy, or they are delusional and think that they could afford any procedure if they needed to, and that universal systems destroy their theoretical 'access' to such great medicine.

I was always under the impression that most people thought that, rather then really like the current private insurance system which I don't find many people defending aside for vested interests.

Of course the problem is that it is those vested interests which end up tricking regular people that they can afford to pay out of pocket for medical care so they should oppose universal care, while fully knowing that without universal coverage, people would just end up buying private insurance, because in the end very, very few people can actually to afford to pay out of pocket (or they have no choice because their employer automatically gives them insurance).
 
Even funnier is that Canadian tax rates are declining, while they will have to rise dramatically in the US to cover part of that yawning 12% of GDP deficit. I don't blame you for jumping ship, Brandon.
 
Generally speaking its a fear campaign, it used to be the doctors (although now not so much as docs get payment denials from insurance so regularly these days). Now its just a general misinformation campaign from groups committed to the for profit health market.

The reason American government leaders doesn't support a truly universal, single payer health system is that they believe exactly what you said Epi: they first think of wait lines (nevermind the fact that the average HMO has a longer wait list than Canada). They think of poor care (nevermind the fact that quality of care in Canada, Japan, and many nations is top notch and high tech). Members of Congress can be painfully stupid and they also get bought off if they aren't stupid.

And worse yet, Americans who buy into this marketing against universal care don't realize that while some nations do have wait periods for certain things (which is unfortunate) but Americans get denied care and won't ever get the chance to wait for a procedure.

No system of health can be perfect, its a public service, and eventually we all die no matter what. The reason why Americans largely have avoided a universal system is because in the past they were afraid of it.

But in today's age its not the people. Its the people in Washington running the nation. The people are ahead of Washington on this.

Here's a recent poll I posted in another health thread.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/ushealt...zBHNlYwN5bi1yLWItbGVmdARzbGsDLW1vc3RpbnVzc3Vw

In addition, the survey found that 72 percent of those questioned supported a government-administered insurance plan -- something like Medicare for those under 65 -- that would compete for customers with private insurers.



However, half of those who identified themselves as Republicans said they would support a public plan, along with nearly three-fourths of independents and almost nine in 10 Democrats, according to the poll.

Half of Republicans, a vast majority of independents and Democrats all support a government universal health program.

Its not 1980 anymore, Washington is stuck in this pay-for-play political system, yes even under the Democrats and Obama, where they won't pass true universal care even with a commanding majority.

Its like Jean Chretien having 70% of the ridings in Parliament and destroying health care because his party gets industry money to campaign back in 2000. Makes no sense, eh?


...that is the problem in the US.

At the end of the day, your average HMO plan will deny a hip replacement for a few years, and once you get it scheduled you'll have to wait another 3 months to get it. In Canada no such denials exist.

Denial of care is worse than any wait list. Canadians rightfully cherish their system. Its nonsense what happens south of the border. The only good stories are what you hear coming out of the very top when a new amazing procedure is developed at the Mayo Clinic, or Johns Hopkins, etc. And its not like research doesn't happen in Canada. Toronto, for example, has a strong bio-sciences sector and lots of research where things are developed as well.


If 72% of the American public supports a public insurance system, and one actually got installed and began to be used, I believe that 72% number would eventually rise above 80% and then above 90% over time. Americans go through hell to deal with our current system for no reason what-so-ever, and the few that don't want a public option have no idea what they are missing.

Its worth noting that there are millions of Americans that receive a very high quality of care. They have companies or work for a government entity that backs a very good health plan. They may have a $250 deductible where they pay the first $250 of services and maybe a 5% copay for charges after that up until a certain amount (like a max out of pocket of $2000), but that is only for those with employers that have a good health plan.

Most small business owners, middle sized businesses, and individuals cannot afford that kind of health coverage. And then you have the working poor with no coverage or non-working indigents who we treat as expendable.
 
Last edited:
According to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, American governments spent US$880 billion on health care in 2007.

Canadian governments , federal and provincial, spend C$88 billion on health care.

Per capita, that works out to:
Canada: C$2,611
United States: US$2,868

All in Canadian currency, that's:
Canada: $2,611
United States: $3,334

So that's the total per capita expenditure on health care in the two countries. Recall that the Canadian system insures 100% of the population, while the American system insures barely a third.
 
Yikes I'm sorry you had to go through that Brandon.

BTW, I wanted to thank you for the sentiment, however I don't necessarily want people to feel sorry for me. I still received health care. I was able to withstand the cost, although to be honest I'm just protesting and not paying it since i'm moving to Canada in a month's time anyway... The doctor I saw only accepted me because I have an insurance card, there are nearly 60 million Americans that don't even have a plan who couldn't have had the same treatment as me. THOSE are who you should feel sorry for.

All in all, I was able to see the specialist after a month and a half of waiting, and I was accepted because I had a PPO plan. I indeed got the care, even though my insurance botched the payment and now I cannot go back to that doctor unless he wants to relieve me from the payment (which won't happen). LOL

The real reason I posted this is to help Canadians understand a very real story with someone who was insured. Headlines don't portray reality like this, these kinds of stories can be repeated over and over and I don't even have major medical issues.

I want Canadians to understand why they should continue to have faith and trust in the Canadian health system - despite its few drawbacks - because there is no better system of delivery of care anywhere in the western hemisphere. Canadians enjoy the best health care in the new world.

Just because you hear negative stories of people dying, just remember there are 50x more cases south of the border, and south of the US those nations many times don't even have a developed, widely available advanced medical system what-so-ever.

Cherish what you have, value it, be thankful for it. That's really what I want Canadians to understand. :)

I get even a little offended when people 'defend' the Canadian system by saying 'even though we may have wait periods... its still better' because the US system has outright denials, and most HMO plans have far longer wait lists than Canadian care. Only corporate or government-backed PPO policyholders and individuals who can afford out of pocket care get - generally speaking - lower wait times than an average Canadian service. And even then there are waits, its not like there aren't any wait lists here. ...although that magical 3 month Steve Jobs liver transplant is almost unheard of, I still think he bought someone off... LOL

Canadians need to understand its not just better from an access standpoint, health outcomes are simply much better and the technology you find in Canada is top notch. And there are many high tech research centres across Canada that are very much doing a good job relative to the population.

Every 'problem' in Canada is compounded many times over south of the border. For example, Canada has a shortage of primary care physicians. But, Canadians expect to have a family doctor. I can't imagine how many Canadians fail to understand that a majority of Americans have no primary care physician. And the reason why is because Americans - generally speaking - don't expect to have one. The majority of care in the US is performed by walk-ins. I'm a shining example: I haven't had a general practitioner/family practitioner for myself since I was a kid. I've operated on walk-in help since I was 12 years old, and I'm now 27. In the American health system we don't by majority have family practitioners and there aren't enough for even 60% of the population to simultaneously have one.

Canadian standards tend to be higher, like the expectation that a family or individual needs a family practitioner. You would be amazed at the attitude difference, because most Americans don't see the need for a family practitioner. All these 'problems' of the Canadian system are problems I'd love America to have. Different problems for a different people, I suppose.


----

EDIT: just to clarify some of these terms, the Nixon administration is responsible for creating "corporate managed care." You can have two kinds of insurance companies in the United States: for profit entities or non-profits like Blue Cross/Blue Shield. However in the US the difference between profit seeking and non-profit insurance agencies are almost none.

There are 3 types of managed plans that US companies offer:

HMO - Health Maintenance Organization plans, they are the worst kind of care. You must see a list of company contracted doctors (which is generally very limited), and only HMO approved hospitals. You can be kicked out of a hospital and denied full emergency care on these plans. However, a huge number of working Americans have this kind of care.

PPO - Preferred Provider Organization plans, they are the best kind of managed care, but are still a pain (like my example above where they denied payment after recieving the care). PPO plans are notoriously relaxed: you can visit a specialist without a referral, but it has to be in the PPO network otherwise you pay a significant amount to be covered.

POS - Point of Service plans, these mix some attributes of HMO and PPO plans. POS plans tend to require going to a network of hospitals or doctors that may not be close to your residence (especially for exurban or rural customers, they may be forced to drive by 3 hospitals before they arrive at one that accepts the plan). But POS plans, unlike HMO, allow you to get reimbursed out of network more often, although there are limitations and you don't get reimbursed for all care, usually 50% or so.

Some insurance providers offer 'indemnity' health plans that are technically walk into any doctor's office anywhere and be covered, but generally speaking in order for those plans to actually pay, you must have a huge monthly premium and must be wealthy anyway. Less than 5% of Americans have indemnity health plans.

HMO and PPO plans are king, POS is becoming more popular, and indemnity or do-it-yourself plans are least popular because they are least affordable.

HMO, PPO, and POS plans aren't really free choice, because you must visit only doctors and hospitals contracted in your health insurance plan. For example, a major hospital may cover Aetna or Blue Cross/Blue Shield patients, but it may not accept Cigna patients. EVEN with a PPO plan. Although with a PPO plan you still get a 'discount' for visiting out of network, but with POS and HMO you cannot get reimbursed if a doctor from that hospital agrees to service you.

Mind you this is the problem: doctors will usually not accept patients unless they have insurance approval unless its an ER visit where there its against the law to refuse patient admission. But you only get limited ER care, not full health services.

And here is how bad an HMO can be: in order to receive services you must visit your primary care physician and be referred. Sounds fair enough, right? Well, the referral list for you is controlled by insurance company executives that have little health care experience. And doctors that accept HMO patients for a given company may be very small, so your primary care physician has limited choice with who you can be sent to. And usually HMO networks contract the worst doctors, because the US has lower standards and there is a multi-tiered approach.

This is why some Americans are scared to death about a single-payer system, they see how bad HMO's are and they think it would be like offering a limited HMO for everyone, with no control over doctor choice.

Its easy to understand why some Americans have a perverted sense of what single payer is, but in reality we have corporate insurance bureaucrats deciding our care, not doctors.

In Canada, doctors primarily choose the care and place you appropriately. This is key to why the Canadian system is more effective and better. Doctors don't control patient flow in America, the insurance company must approve it first, and the people that work in insurance companies aren't docs. They are profit seeking idiots.
 
Last edited:
According to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, American governments spent US$880 billion on health care in 2007.

Canadian governments , federal and provincial, spend C$88 billion on health care.

Per capita, that works out to:
Canada: C$2,611
United States: US$2,868

All in Canadian currency, that's:
Canada: $2,611
United States: $3,334

So that's the total per capita expenditure on health care in the two countries. Recall that the Canadian system insures 100% of the population, while the American system insures barely a third.

And that's just government spending, not the private insurance market that serves the majority of the population and pushes our health spending way, way up there.

Crazy, isn't it? LOL
 
Great thread - the paycheck/paycheque comparison is really interesting. I'm going to play with the calculator and see how it differs when you start getting to $100K+ salaries.

As an example, these people think that if they have a real problem then they can pull up to the Mayo Clinic, give them a cheque and have their problem fixed that same day. Since under a universal system, they'd have to wait in line like everyone else, and wouldn't have the option of paying top dollar for whatever it is they want to do (whether it is speeded up annual physical, or getting a MRI and ACL repair the same day) the universal system sucks.

Of course either these people are very, very wealthy, or they are delusional and think that they could afford any procedure if they needed to, and that universal systems destroy their theoretical 'access' to such great medicine.

The problem in America especially is that even though the economic divide between rich and poor is bigger than it's ever been, a huge percentage of people believe that they one day will be in that top 10% of earners.

This has the weird effect of getting people to vote against their own self-interest. We saw this most recently with the election, where people who were making nowhere near $250,000 a year protested against Obama's tax plan because they believed that one day they'd be in that tax bracket.

It's a weird side-effect of all that rah-rah American Dream rhetoric. People make political decisions based on where they think they'll be once they 'hit it big'. Which is pretty stupid from all angles.
 

Back
Top