Waterloo Region Transit Developments (ION LRT, new terminal, GRT buses)

[Streety McCarface]

KW airport has a daily commercial flight number that you can count on one hand. A frequent bus connection is overkill, yet alone an LRT or heavy rail connection.

Although I generally agree that some of the desires of the foamers here are out of touch with reality, there is absolutely nothing wrong with studying future options in case of future demand. What if a low-cost carrier like Jetblue, Swoop, or Southwest wants to set up shop somewhere in the near future? KW would probably be their best bet since landing fees there would be almost nonexistent.

 

[TOareaFan]

Although I generally agree that some of the desires of the foamers here are out of touch with reality, there is absolutely nothing wrong with studying future options in case of future demand. What if a low-cost carrier like Jetblue, Swoop, or Southwest wants to set up shop somewhere in the near future? KW would probably be their best bet since landing fees there would be almost nonexistent.

They are not zero but they are lower than Pearson and Hamilton....but low landing fees are useless if your flights can't generate the passenger loads to support the service.....landing fees are only one component of the business calcs that airlines run when deciding on adding a destination/airport. Pearson would be the first choice for most airlines and Hamilton would likely be number 2 (in fact Swoop is going to based out of Hamilton not KW).

 

[Streety McCarface]

They are not zero but they are lower than Pearson and Hamilton....but low landing fees are useless if your flights can't generate the passenger loads to support the service.....landing fees are only one component of the business calcs that airlines run when deciding on adding a destination/airport. Pearson would be the first choice for most airlines and Hamilton would likely be number 2 (in fact Swoop is going to based out of Hamilton not KW).

The key in my argument is "low cost carrier", where every little price point matters.

 

[innsertnamehere]

TOareaFan's point stands. A low cost carrier won't operate if nobody will use the service. Kitchener is quite a distance from Toronto, significantly further than Hamilton is. It may be too far for even low cost carriers to operate.

Swoop IIRC is flying to Abbotsford instead of Vancouver, so that may be a similar situation, but Hamilton is still likely a far better option.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

If you're referring to the provincial greenbelt, a) no, it doesn't expand much past the southern and eastern edges of Wellington County, and b) I'm not sure the legislation provides for swaps?

Thanks.

For 2), I am not sure exactly how it works in terms of land swaps, but the legislation is specific in that the Greenbelt "cannot be amended to reduce the total land area covered in this plan." Which in my understanding means that one part of the Greenbelt may be approved for intensification so long as an equal amount of land elsewhere is in turn, designated as Greenbelt. Given the difficulty in arranging that though, I'd imagine it would almost certainly have to be something spearheaded by the province.

Though that point is rendered moot if the area we are talking about is not designated as part of the Greenbelt. Even more so, now that I have read since my post above that Thug Ford wants to open up the Greenbelt for development.

 

[TOareaFan]

Are we really comparing KW's airport to Edinburgh? I would bet the passenger numbers at Edinburgh (which may not be a large city but is a major tourist city in Europe) are >10X the numbers you would see at KW.

So, I looked it up. Seems that airport that was described as "slightly larger than Waterloo Region Airport" Served 103X as many passengers in 2016. I think it is easy to see why someone might build an LRT line to serve an airport like Edinburgh but might question the need at Waterloo Region Airport.

Edinburgh:

KW:

 

[innsertnamehere]

Edinbourough would rank as the 5th largest airport in Canada even, slightly behind Calgary, about 50% larger than Edmonton, 3x larger than Ottawa.

 

[TOareaFan]

The key in my argument is "low cost carrier", where every little price point matters.

They only matter if there are customers.

The list of airlines that have set up at Hamilton but failed to attract customers is quite long.....the lower landing fees mean nothing if the revenues don't come anyway....that is the point. Swoop going to Hamilton is worth watching because they are not the first to try this..if they can make a go of it there may be some traction for Hamilton.

Think of it this way.....Swoop came along and likely had all 3 airports available to them....and yet they did not pick the airport with the lowest landing fees....do you think there might be a reason for that? (hint, there are multiple reasons and they add up to KW's airport not being a very competitive choice)

 

[TOareaFan]

Edinbourough would rank as the 5th largest airport in Canada even, slightly behind Calgary, about 50% larger than Edmonton, 3x larger than Ottawa.

busiest in Scotland and 6th busiest in the UK as I understand it. To say I was shocked to see it compared to Waterloo is a huge understatement.

 

[micheal_can]

The airport may not be enough of a demand for an express service train, but look at the Canada Line in Vancouver. To me, that is better than the UPX.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Crazy idea.. What about a DMU operated shuttle connecting Kitchener GO (transit hub), Breslau, and the airport when the ridership demands it? (Pink Line)

 

[Kyle Campbell]

They only matter if there are customers.

The list of airlines that have set up at Hamilton but failed to attract customers is quite long.....the lower landing fees mean nothing if the revenues don't come anyway....that is the point. Swoop going to Hamilton is worth watching because they are not the first to try this..if they can make a go of it there may be some traction for Hamilton.

Think of it this way.....Swoop came along and likely had all 3 airports available to them....and yet they did not pick the airport with the lowest landing fees....do you think there might be a reason for that? (hint, there are multiple reasons and they add up to KW's airport not being a very competitive choice)

While I wish swoop the best of luck, low cost carriers have always failed in Canada, mostly because cheap American airports like Buffalo are too close and offer plentiful choices.

Still it's nice that they are planning for the possibility of a rail link even though it seems excessive right now.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Crazy idea.. What about a DMU operated shuttle connecting Kitchener GO (transit hub), Breslau, and the airport when the ridership demands it? (Pink Line)

If it was a higher-demand airport, I could see the merits of a UPX-style shuttle, as long as they didn't repeat the mistakes of implementing stops inbetween; A Kitchener-Waterloo Airport Express, that goes express from Kitchener to Waterloo Airport.

But since it isn't a higher-used airport, an ION line that stopped along the way would be sufficient, from downtown Kitchener, via Victoria and Fountain, to downtown Cambridge.

 

[kps]

Crazy idea.. What about a DMU operated shuttle connecting Kitchener GO (transit hub), Breslau, and the airport when the ridership demands it? (Pink Line)

Metrolinx's dashed line location is absurd, since it's on the opposite side of the airport from the terminal, and Transport Canada frowns on runways having level crossings. (The proposed Breslau Go station location is also absurd; it's literally the least reachable point available, so it'll slow Kitchener trains for few riders. It's where I'd put a station if I were trying to sabotage Kitchener GO.)

 

[idc24]

According to a map on pg. 37 of the YKF-2017---20 Year Master Plan, the Waterloo Region has long term plans to relocate the passenger terminal to the north-west side of the main runway.

https://www.waterlooairport.ca/en/b...20-Year-Master-Plan--2017-2036-Appendices.pdf