VIVA + York Region Transit

[Sandpit]

If Durham can operate Pulse service on Kingston Road 24/7; there's no reason York Region can't do that for Highway 7

That would make the two N-S services much more useful.

Subsequently a more fulsome network is required.

Tell that to York Region.

Also, there’s already a 24-hour route in York Region (GO Route 40) and 24-hour service from YRT would boost it by providing last-mile connections.

 

[Northern Light]

Tell that to York Region.

While I can endeavour to influence York Region a bit, I'm not a resident/voter up there, nor am I exceptionally well connected.

Its up to York Region residents and business owners to lobby their representatives for better.

They stand the best chance of inducing change.

The key is finding 'the sell' that moves the needle.

It might be straight-up votes; but it might also be how many employers are facing worker shortages because of commute challenges; it might be how the absence of better service could impact future improvements in GO Service or investment in growing post-secondary offerings; or some combination of these.

Whatever, York Reigon needs to be pushed hard, to deliver more, better, sooner on the transit service file.

 

[Sandpit]

While I can endeavour to influence York Region a bit, I'm not a resident/voter up there, nor am I exceptionally well connected.

Its up to York Region residents and business owners to lobby their representatives for better.

They stand the best chance of inducing change.

The key is finding 'the sell' that moves the needle.

It might be straight-up votes; but it might also be how many employers are facing worker shortages because of commute challenges; it might be how the absence of better service could impact future improvements in GO Service or investment in growing post-secondary offerings; or some combination of these.

Whatever, York Reigon needs to be pushed hard, to deliver more, better, sooner on the transit service file.

I think I’ve emailed them once, and provided feedback on their annual service plan. But they post summaries of their public consultation, and it’s never really come up as an issue (I’ve only seen one other person propose something similar, but they asked for 24-hour Viva service along all major streets, and that’s a pretty big ask…)

 

[Northern Light]

I think I’ve emailed them once, and provided feedback on their annual service plan. But they post summaries of their public consultation, and it’s never really come up as an issue (I’ve only seen one other person propose something similar, but they asked for 24-hour Viva service along all major streets, and that’s a pretty big ask…)

Talking directly to transit officials, is a fine thing, nothing wrong with that at all, especially if you're getting into the technical weeds about a route/operations.

But the people who you need to move are York Region Council.

They set the budget.

Staff can only spend what they are allocated.

Sometimes, you can persuade ambitious staff to advocate a clear proposal to Council.

That's worth talking to the head of YRT about, if you think they'd be willing to do it.

But the more productive route is going to Council.

YRT staff answer to Council; but Council answers to you.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

If Durham can operate Pulse service on Kingston Road 24/7; there's no reason York Region can't do that for Highway 7

That would make the two N-S services much more useful.

Subsequently a more fulsome network is required.

It's embarrassing. It's still suburban transit, but at least other areas of the 905 don't make it completely impossible to live there.

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

There’s a few issues here as a region in whole:

1) Actual East to West travel on Hwy 7 from Vaughan to Markham doesn’t have the demand. Most of the demand is either within Vaughan along Hwy 7 or in Markham along Hwy 7. Demand falls off between Keele-Yonge-Bayview. Part of this is geographical but also the nature of zoning between here.

In the past when Viva Purple ran from MS-Hopsital to York University it pulled a lot of demand via students. But the demand drops off substantially after York University out towards Martin Grove.

2) YRT has a huge coverage area that spans between urban and very rural. The fact that York Region Council controls YRT not individual municipalities means that southern York Region is constantly jostling with the northern counterpart for service. Think of it as the inner 416 vs the suburban 416.


3) The Region as a whole still operates as if it’s still in the Pre-Harris era; before York Region existed. Much of the development today is still influenced from historically established identities eg. Maple, Thornhill, Woodbridge. Which makes it challenging to serve as there’s multiple centres.

-even within Vaughan, people from say Thornhill will comment about how they dislike Woodbridge or don’t like going past the 400.

4) Demand and wealth are also another issue. The lower income parts of York Region are not concentrated in southern York Region but vastly spread out into the far fringes. Southern York Region also tends to be very wealthy and residents can afford multiple cars thus never having to use YRT which compounds on the problem that travel destination patterns are dispersed.

5) I think there’s a misunderstanding of how York Region works in general. Constituents go to their local municipality to get things fixed or file complaints. Not the Region. Some things are not under a municipality level but on the Regional level. A good example is roadway services such as maintenance and snow removal. Some roads are regional roads (eg. Bathurst, Yonge, Keele, Bayview etc) and they are under the control of York Region. While other roads are under the municipality control.

6) In some ways, one could see each municipality running their own fiefdom/silo. Which is also why you have numerous downtown plans set out by individual municipalities such as Vaughan, Markham and Richmond Hill but are not as well coordinated with one another.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

There’s a few issues here as a region in whole:

1) Actual East to West travel on Hwy 7 from Vaughan to Markham doesn’t have the demand. Most of the demand is either within Vaughan along Hwy 7 or in Markham along Hwy 7. Demand falls off between Keele-Yonge-Bayview. Part of this is geographical but also the nature of zoning between here.

In the past when Viva Purple ran from MS-Hopsital to York University it pulled a lot of demand via students. But the demand drops off substantially after York University out towards Martin Grove.

2) YRT has a huge coverage area that spans between urban and very rural. The fact that York Region Council controls YRT not individual municipalities means that southern York Region is constantly jostling with the northern counterpart for service. Think of it as the inner 416 vs the suburban 416.


3) The Region as a whole still operates as if it’s still in the Pre-Harris era; before York Region existed. Much of the development today is still influenced from historically established identities eg. Maple, Thornhill, Woodbridge. Which makes it challenging to serve as there’s multiple centres.

-even within Vaughan, people from say Thornhill will comment about how they dislike Woodbridge or don’t like going past the 400.

These are all good points. None of them "excuse" the issues YRT is having but they do contextualize them.
YRT would function differently it didn't have to spread itself thin covering areas north of the moraine and/or have its southern service cannibalized by TTC.

I think the rural/urban thing is an underrated factor and it's a good point about how the demand falls off in the centre of Highway 7, because the road basically becomes a highway. I think/hope/expect that once the Yonge subway is open that will change, as people are funnelled to the new node. But that section or road doesn't seem likely to change in our lifetimes.

Given what we saw the Province do to Peel, it's interesting to consider what may or may not happen to York Region in the next few months and what effects that might have on transit. I'm not a transit planner so I don't know the answer but I do think it's simplistic to fault them for not being Brampton or whatever other system, because the context is relevant.

 

[Northern Light]

There’s a few issues here as a region in whole:

1) Actual East to West travel on Hwy 7 from Vaughan to Markham doesn’t have the demand. Most of the demand is either within Vaughan along Hwy 7 or in Markham along Hwy 7. Demand falls off between Keele-Yonge-Bayview. Part of this is geographical but also the nature of zoning between here.

Sure.

But.

a) No line, no subway, bus or LRT at least of any length maintains constant demand along its entire route.

That's a very high bar to justify service delivery.

b) Highway 2/Kingston Road is similarly long in Durham Region; while there is some end to end demand headed to UTSC or the like; a great deal of the demand is more local and varies across the route.

c) There is a need to get people from the subway or a 24-hour bus replacement to somewhere. The catchment of a 10 minute walk or less to Yonge and Jane respectively doesn't cut it.

There really isn't a better candidate East-West route for a first service. It serves the emerging Vaughan City Centre, a major node at Yonge, the would-be Downtown Markham, and Markville Mall, while crossing one current and one future branch of Line 1.

2) YRT has a huge coverage area that spans between urban and very rural. The fact that York Region Council controls YRT not individual municipalities means that southern York Region is constantly jostling with the northern counterpart for service. Think of it as the inner 416 vs the suburban 416.

Durham Region has even more rural area than York Region, and likewise goes as far north as Lake Simcoe.

4) Demand and wealth are also another issue. The lower income parts of York Region are not concentrated in southern York Region but vastly spread out into the far fringes. Southern York Region also tends to be very wealthy and residents can afford multiple cars thus never having to use YRT which compounds on the problem that travel destination patterns are dispersed.

No doubt; though 10 years ago, YRT/VIVA had some growth under its belt, and it looked broadly as attractive or more attractive than Durham Region Transit and maybe Brampton too.

While YRT has stagnated, the others have improved by leaps and bounds (both still have a long way to go); but there is a certain chicken-egg issue here.

"No one rides the bus" ......uhhh, sure, you run it every 36M much of the day, or have irregular headways, its hourly on Sunday and only til 9pm........

Who the hell is riding this bus that has a choice?

When you run it every 15M in rush hour, and at least every 30M the rest of the time, riders suddenly start to appear, partly from the existing population, and partly because transit-dependent people will suddenly consider the area viable for living or work.

 

[Undead]

Talking directly to transit officials, is a fine thing, nothing wrong with that at all, especially if you're getting into the technical weeds about a route/operations.

But the people who you need to move are York Region Council.

They set the budget.

Staff can only spend what they are allocated.

Sometimes, you can persuade ambitious staff to advocate a clear proposal to Council.

That's worth talking to the head of YRT about, if you think they'd be willing to do it.

But the more productive route is going to Council.

YRT staff answer to Council; but Council answers to you.

And *always* copy the local MPPs.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Sure.

But.

a) No line, no subway, bus or LRT at least of any length maintains constant demand along its entire route.

Yes, of course this is true. But the obvious paradox here is that Keele-Bayview is basically the centre of York Region and so, all things being equal, it should not be where demand drops off. It would be like if Line 2 had low ridership between Broadview and Spadina. And yet Highway 7 conspires against this; it's tricky.

Similarly, they'd almost certainly have higher ridership on several routes south of Highway 7 if not for the proximity of TTC services. Anyway, the main point is that the various transit services are really apples and oranges, operating in different contexts.

That said, no one can dispute YRT has lost the momentum they had and there are things to figure out. They can't sit around waiting for a subway coming in 10 years to figure it out or fix things for them.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Yes, of course this is true. But the obvious paradox here is that Keele-Bayview is basically the centre of York Region and so, all things being equal, it should not be where demand drops off. It would be like if Line 2 had low ridership between Broadview and Spadina. And yet Highway 7 conspires against this; it's tricky.

Similarly, they'd almost certainly have higher ridership on several routes south of Highway 7 if not for the proximity of TTC services. Anyway, the main point is that the various transit services are really apples and oranges, operating in different contexts.

That said, no one can dispute YRT has lost the momentum they had and there are things to figure out. They can't sit around waiting for a subway coming in 10 years to figure it out or fix things for them.

This is key.

There’s a few issues here as a region in whole:

1) Actual East to West travel on Hwy 7 from Vaughan to Markham doesn’t have the demand. Most of the demand is either within Vaughan along Hwy 7 or in Markham along Hwy 7. Demand falls off between Keele-Yonge-Bayview. Part of this is geographical but also the nature of zoning between here.

In the past when Viva Purple ran from MS-Hopsital to York University it pulled a lot of demand via students. But the demand drops off substantially after York University out towards Martin Grove.

2) YRT has a huge coverage area that spans between urban and very rural. The fact that York Region Council controls YRT not individual municipalities means that southern York Region is constantly jostling with the northern counterpart for service. Think of it as the inner 416 vs the suburban 416.


3) The Region as a whole still operates as if it’s still in the Pre-Harris era; before York Region existed. Much of the development today is still influenced from historically established identities eg. Maple, Thornhill, Woodbridge. Which makes it challenging to serve as there’s multiple centres.

-even within Vaughan, people from say Thornhill will comment about how they dislike Woodbridge or don’t like going past the 400.

4) Demand and wealth are also another issue. The lower income parts of York Region are not concentrated in southern York Region but vastly spread out into the far fringes. Southern York Region also tends to be very wealthy and residents can afford multiple cars thus never having to use YRT which compounds on the problem that travel destination patterns are dispersed.

5) I think there’s a misunderstanding of how York Region works in general. Constituents go to their local municipality to get things fixed or file complaints. Not the Region. Some things are not under a municipality level but on the Regional level. A good example is roadway services such as maintenance and snow removal. Some roads are regional roads (eg. Bathurst, Yonge, Keele, Bayview etc) and they are under the control of York Region. While other roads are under the municipality control.

6) In some ways, one could see each municipality running their own fiefdom/silo. Which is also why you have numerous downtown plans set out by individual municipalities such as Vaughan, Markham and Richmond Hill but are not as well coordinated with one another.

Sure.

But.

a) No line, no subway, bus or LRT at least of any length maintains constant demand along its entire route.

That's a very high bar to justify service delivery.

b) Highway 2/Kingston Road is similarly long in Durham Region; while there is some end to end demand headed to UTSC or the like; a great deal of the demand is more local and varies across the route.

c) There is a need to get people from the subway or a 24-hour bus replacement to somewhere. The catchment of a 10 minute walk or less to Yonge and Jane respectively doesn't cut it.

There really isn't a better candidate East-West route for a first service. It serves the emerging Vaughan City Centre, a major node at Yonge, the would-be Downtown Markham, and Markville Mall, while crossing one current and one future branch of Line 1.



Durham Region has even more rural area than York Region, and likewise goes as far north as Lake Simcoe.



No doubt; though 10 years ago, YRT/VIVA had some growth under its belt, and it looked broadly as attractive or more attractive than Durham Region Transit and maybe Brampton too.

While YRT has stagnated, the others have improved by leaps and bounds (both still have a long way to go); but there is a certain chicken-egg issue here.

"No one rides the bus" ......uhhh, sure, you run it every 36M much of the day, or have irregular headways, its hourly on Sunday and only til 9pm........

Who the hell is riding this bus that has a choice?

When you run it every 15M in rush hour, and at least every 30M the rest of the time, riders suddenly start to appear, partly from the existing population, and partly because transit-dependent people will suddenly consider the area viable for living or work.

Exactly. Didn't York Region ask the TTC to run these routes Bathurst, Weston, Woodbine, Warden, Markham Road? So if that's the case you increase the service on the secondary lines. You beef up service in Newmarket/Aurora. Every Regional municipality has rural areas. Hamilton has Flamborough. This can't be about single-car homes because Oakville has lots of those. This is the minimum effort and with the subway and GO Expansion coming it's not good enough.


That being said, I also heard YRT doesn't have enough vehicles, does anyone know if is this true?

 

[Sandpit]

There’s a few issues here as a region in whole:

1) Actual East to West travel on Hwy 7 from Vaughan to Markham doesn’t have the demand. Most of the demand is either within Vaughan along Hwy 7 or in Markham along Hwy 7. Demand falls off between Keele-Yonge-Bayview. Part of this is geographical but also the nature of zoning between here.

I'd say the demand is there: it's just that these trips take place on GO's 407 routes instead. Which brings us to the issue of GO cannabalizing YRT's ridership.

 

[anb]

There is actually close to 24 hour service on Highway 7. The last westbound bus leaving Finch on weekdays is 2:23AM and it picks back up at 4:30AM. Literally one trip in between 3-3:30 and doing the same in the opposite direction will basically make the route 24/7.

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

Just took a look at who's the current GM for YRT...leave a lot to be desired.

 

[mossynukes]

By contrast.....though the page discusses rush-hour improvements..........look at the joke that is Major Mac service......every 1hour 3 min weekday, mid-day:

View attachment 499853

I understand it looks bad, but Route 25 went from every 34 minutes at its best, to now every 24 minutes. Quite a substantial improvement. I couldn't tell how frequent it was during the other periods, but I am sure it has gotten a lot more frequent during all periods.