Visited Montreal for the first time. Some questions about their Metro system

[mrgrieves]

Please find me an article relating to Toronto where theres the same sentiment as Montreal RER.

I’m a bit surprised by the comments in the Radio-Canada article. But not completely.


Having spent most of my life in Montreal, I feel there is a different sentiment between the two cities. It’s very hard and almost unfair to generalize, but Montreal tends to be less private than Toronto and open to things that may cause headaches but overall are beneficial.


In Montreal, its much more common to live in multi-family residences like duplexes, or triplexes. While many people live in high-rise apartments in Toronto, these tend to be more private than walk-up type places. And there are many more public spaces like parks and squares in Montreal where people are comfortable just lounging around. These exist to a more limited extent in Toronto to areas like Yorkville.


Montreal’s attitude is evident in the festival culture of the city like Jazz Fest and Just For Laughs where huge parts of the downtown core are closed to cars and a lot of people in the city will spend their days or evenings just walking around and enjoying the free, public entertainment, and their city. I know that Toronto has its festivals, but they are smaller in scale and much less laid back. In Montreal, these festivals cause huge disruption to some parts of the city, especially Jazz Fest. Road traffic and parking can be a nightmare. But overall people in the city love these events and feel that the disruptions are worth it. Montreal is less corporate and utilitarian, and I feel there is a stronger balance between cultural elements and pleasing the private sector.


That being said, the Radio-Canada article does seem biased and I am sure there are many people in the city (in more affluent areas especially) who would passionately reject having overhead trains every 6-12 minutes. And personally speaking, I would not want to live close that sort of infrastructure.


(Also, there are MANY things that Toronto does far better than Montreal.)

 

[W. K. Lis]

Wonder if they used existing caves in Montreal to build their Metro stations?

 

[junctionist]

No. The tunnels were carved through rock. The stations were large pits for lowering and raising machinery.

 

[mdrejhon]

I was absolutely blown away by how clean and nice the entire metro system in Montreal looked. This on top of the fact that there were homeless people sleeping on chairs and benches inside the actual platforms. The stations were remarkably clean and spacious. The physical expanse of some of the stations was astonishing, I can't even think of more than one or two stations in Toronto that can even come close to the actual size of most of the stations (the size of the mezzanine + platform, etc). It was also really interesting how at some interchange stations a different line would be on the same platform to make transfers quick.

More than five years ago, on a contract living in Ottawa, I frequently spent weekdays in Montreal, living in Montreal for 5-day stretches at a time for many parts of the year (lived one-third of the time in Montreal, overall). I commuted so often (usually a first train Monday, late train Friday), that I became a VIA PREMIER (LEVEL 3) from all that train travel between Ottawa and Montreal!

Through this, I got the chance to experience Montreal's subway system through all four seasons. It sums up to three huge takeaways:

1. Great distinctive/artsy station design, makes it easy to know when to get off without needing to see the station name.
TTC's York extension will have six much-more-artsy stations already taking a note from Montreal, and I believe the Crosstown LRT will up the station game.

2. Lovely toasty warm in the winter, stations and trains. Essentially heated subway stations, thanks to being completely underground.
Also, Montreal's RESO -- La Ville Souterraine -- is pretty big too like Toronto's PATH. You could easily live with a T-shirt in the winter if you don't need to step out of the RESO and RESO connected stations.

3. Horribly hot in the summer. Sometimes hotter than failed air conditioning on Bloor-Danforth, every hot summer day, every train, with no escape.
No contest. Toronto wins. I'll take air conditioning over station design, but I'd rather have both.

 

[robmausser]

More than five years ago, on a contract living in Ottawa, I frequently spent weekdays in Montreal, living in Montreal for 5-day stretches at a time for many parts of the year (lived one-third of the time in Montreal, overall). I commuted so often (usually a first train Monday, late train Friday), that I became a VIA PREMIER (LEVEL 3) from all that train travel between Ottawa and Montreal!

Through this, I got the chance to experience Montreal's subway system through all four seasons. It sums up to three huge takeaways:

1. Great distinctive/artsy station design, makes it easy to know when to get off without needing to see the station name.
TTC's York extension will have six much-more-artsy stations already taking a note from Montreal, and I believe the Crosstown LRT will up the station game.

2. Lovely toasty warm in the winter, stations and trains. Essentially heated subway stations, thanks to being completely underground.
Also, Montreal's RESO -- La Ville Souterraine -- is pretty big too like Toronto's PATH. You could easily live with a T-shirt in the winter if you don't need to step out of the RESO and RESO connected stations.

3. Horribly hot in the summer. Sometimes hotter than failed air conditioning on Bloor-Danforth, every hot summer day, every train, with no escape.
No contest. Toronto wins. I'll take air conditioning over station design, but I'd rather have both.

4. Loud and jostly trains.

I think their newer trains are a bit better, but those rubber tyred trains are loud and bumpy. I find the ride uncomfortable.

 

[junctionist]

The trains are a downside. They're small, loud, and lack air conditioning. They can't operate in the snow.

 

[mdrejhon]

Reportedly, they say air conditioning the Montreal subway is impractical due to already uncomfortably hot stations in summer. I wonder if decades into the future, a new kind of air conditoners can cool Montreal subway trains without heating up the stations even more uncomfortably warm. Basically, redirecting heat somewhere else (into rails, into electricity, or another form of energy, etc).

 

[SFO-YYZ]

Rode on the new AZUR trains last week a few times on the Ligne Orange. Some observations:

- Incredibly smooth ride from Station Beaubien to Bonaventure (I judge a ride's smoothness by my ability to stand in the middle of the train hands-free the entire journey )
- Aesthetically pleasing design (both the exterior and interior); the whole thing looked very sleek compared to TTC's Rocket
- Eye catching interior LED lights on both sides of the door to indicate which set of doors are opening (red for doors closed or blocked while shiny white for doors open >> can be a big deal for someone who has hearing problems)

Also some general observations about the Metro (compared to TTC Subway Line 1 which I use daily):

- Much shorter station dwell time (average 8 seconds according to my casual count)
- Trains maintain a steady pace throughout the journey, without abrupt slowdowns or pauses (unlike a typical TTC journey on Line 1 which experiences speed reductions/complete halts for no apparent reason mid-journey)

Both of those can probably be attributed to Montreal having ATC, and a more robust operating and maintenance budget.

 

[smallspy]

- Trains maintain a steady pace throughout the journey, without abrupt slowdowns or pauses (unlike a typical TTC journey on Line 1 which experiences speed reductions/complete halts for no apparent reason mid-journey)

Both of those can probably be attributed to Montreal having ATC, and a more robust operating and maintenance budget.

That has nothing to do with Montréal's ATC/ATO, and everything to do with their operating rules.

For whatever reason, they've decided that with very few exceptions, the following train can not leave the station until the one ahead has cleared the next one. This way no train should ever stop in the tunnels (with the exception of a couple of locations where the distance between stations is too great).

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[SFO-YYZ]

That has nothing to do with Montréal's ATC/ATO, and everything to do with their operating rules.

For whatever reason, they've decided that with very few exceptions, the following train can not leave the station until the one ahead has cleared the next one. This way no train should ever stop in the tunnels (with the exception of a couple of locations where the distance between stations is too great).

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Good to know.

Whatever the rationalization, I think it definitely makes a much more smooth and speedier ride once you are on the train.

Sitting on TTC Line 1 from St. Claire to Finch almost makes one want to get out and take grab an Uber on Yonge - repeated stops, speed reductions, bumpy train tracks between St. Claire and Eglinton that tend to jerk passengers side ways. The worst is when a train stops for 2-3 minutes repeatedly in a tunnel with no announcement or explanation - one can almost feel the passengers fuming in the car Fun.

 

[smallspy]

Good to know.

Whatever the rationalization, I think it definitely makes a much more smooth and speedier ride once you are on the train.

That may be, but it also reduces the number of people that they can carry, since the minimum headway is quite a bit longer than that here in Toronto.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[SFO-YYZ]

That may be, but it also reduces the number of people that they can carry, since the minimum headway is quite a bit longer than that here in Toronto.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Indeed.

But I think most people are okay with waiting in a clean and temperature controlled station (with wifi or cell signal no less). I think it's more psychologically soothing for passengers to wait in the station (but be informed of the exact ETA of an upcoming train even if it is 5 or 10 min) than being stuck on a halted or slow moving train, in a tunnel, with no apparent explanation.

 

[mrgrieves]

A bit unrelated, but another difference between the two systems is the profile of the riders. Montreal has less traffic (at least within the city, the highways and bridges are still clogged) and parking is cheaper. So business people working downtown are more likely in Montreal to drive and park at their offices. Whereas in Toronto because of traffic it makes more sense for most people working downtown to take transit. So Toronto tends to attract a more clean cut, white collar crowd at least during the rush hours. I’m not saying business people don’t take the Metro, but just not to the same extent as in Toronto.


I would also say that because the Metro has such good coverage in the core areas of the city and there is less reliability on buses in Mtl vs Toronto, the Metro is more critical to the city than the subway is in Toronto especially outside of rush hours. I’d venture to say that these regular subway weekend maintenance and upgrade closures in Toronto would not be tolerated in Montreal.


At the end of the day, the key difference IMO is that Montreal’s metro network has much more depth to it and was mainly built at a time when the city was thinking big and decided to build a real system. Toronto tends to think small, and the network has much more breadth and was built in a piece meal fashion extending to inner suburbs instead of building depth to it.

 

[aquateam]

Rode on the new AZUR trains last week a few times on the Ligne Orange. Some observations:

- Incredibly smooth ride from Station Beaubien to Bonaventure (I judge a ride's smoothness by my ability to stand in the middle of the train hands-free the entire journey )
- Aesthetically pleasing design (both the exterior and interior); the whole thing looked very sleek compared to TTC's Rocket
- Eye catching interior LED lights on both sides of the door to indicate which set of doors are opening (red for doors closed or blocked while shiny white for doors open >> can be a big deal for someone who has hearing problems)

Overall I think the design of the AZUR is much better than the TRs when it comes to lighting and indications. But I'll just mention that standing in the middle of the train hands-free is pretty much obligatory since the grab bars are so high:

AZUR not for short people: New Metro car receives mixed reviews from commuters

More than half of the complaints concern the positioning of the horizontal grab bars installed on the roof of the train.

"The support bars are inaccessible because they are too high," one commuter wrote in.

"I am 5 foot 10 and I can just reach it."

But personally I think that people are just whining. The new trains are a big upgrade over the 40 year old cars.

That may be, but it also reduces the number of people that they can carry, since the minimum headway is quite a bit longer than that here in Toronto.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

The difference in minimum headway isn't very noticeable in the Montreal metro. The difference in the maximum headway (>12 mins) is definitely noticeable.

A bit unrelated, but another difference between the two systems is the profile of the riders. Montreal has less traffic (at least within the city, the highways and bridges are still clogged) and parking is cheaper. So business people working downtown are more likely in Montreal to drive and park at their offices. Whereas in Toronto because of traffic it makes more sense for most people working downtown to take transit. So Toronto tends to attract a more clean cut, white collar crowd at least during the rush hours. I’m not saying business people don’t take the Metro, but just not to the same extent as in Toronto.

I know myself and many Montrealers would laugh at hearing there is "less traffic" in Montreal, but the traffic in Montreal seems more related to construction and choke points than general volume. I've been caught in traffic jams in the strangest times/dates in Montreal, whereas in Toronto it tends to be more predictably related to commuting patterns.

I would also say that because the Metro has such good coverage in the core areas of the city and there is less reliability on buses in Mtl vs Toronto, the Metro is more critical to the city than the subway is in Toronto especially outside of rush hours. I’d venture to say that these regular subway weekend maintenance and upgrade closures in Toronto would not be tolerated in Montreal.

At the end of the day, the key difference IMO is that Montreal’s metro network has much more depth to it and was mainly built at a time when the city was thinking big and decided to build a real system. Toronto tends to think small, and the network has much more breadth and was built in a piece meal fashion extending to inner suburbs instead of building depth to it.

This is on the ball: Montreal's metro is more core-oriented, less about reaching out to the boonies, although there are still some central areas with poor metro access. They started off with 3 lines downtown. If Toronto had built the Queen line as originally planned instead of the Spadina line then we would be in the same position (except maybe slightly better overall.) However their bus network is somewhat neglected and is hampered by their lack of a proper street grid.

I don't understand why Montreal doesn't have the same regular closures for track maintenance that Toronto has. Maybe the lack of heat cycling/snow from being entirely underground means that there is less maintenance needed. Or maybe because they have shorter operating hours (which is very frustrating on weekends) there is more time for regular maintenance. Or maybe just because their system is younger than ours and they will need to go through the same thing in 20 years.

 

[mdrejhon]

The difference in minimum headway isn't very noticeable in the Montreal metro. The difference in the maximum headway (>12 mins) is definitely noticeable.

We have world-class headways at peak. None of the lines in New York City that I know of, are able to ram the subway trains as reliably frequently as TTC Yonge line does -- and Yonge will improve headways further with the ATC. Until you've gone to a city and waited 15 minutes for a subway train, you don't realize how lucky we are with TTC Yonge. Delays occur, but they are relatively infrequent for Montreal and Toronto, all things considered, North-America-wise. This probably contributed to their APTA award, too.

Now, only if we had a bigger quantity of metro-quality lines (RER/ST, Crosstown, TTC, etc) well before 2025.