VIA Rail

[nfitz]

Will the tariffs change what happens with the rest of the Siemens fleet?

How can we know that? The list hasn't been published yet.

But how would it make a difference? The tariffs go into the governments revenues. The money to pay the tariffs would come out of government revenues.

I don't see the point to this (and so many) questions. Just think about it.

The bigger question is will it effect who wins the next purchase. Many provinces have been quite clear about removing US companies from tenders. Will the feds follow - though they do like to kow tow religiously to their regulations.

 

[micheal_can]

How can we know that? The list hasn't been published yet.

But how would it make a difference? The tariffs go into the governments revenues. The money to pay the tariffs would come out of government revenues.

I don't see the point to this (and so many) questions. Just think about it.

My thinking is/was that due to parts of them being made on both sides of the border, and other places, the contract we signed for and budgeted for may no longer be valid. And if it goes up, could that mean we do not get as many? And if that happens, does this mean the changeover to the new fleet may get delayed even more?

The bigger question is will it effect who wins the next purchase. Many provinces have been quite clear about removing US companies from tenders. Will the feds follow - though they do like to kow tow religiously to their regulations.

I could see the LDF, and any future HSR fleet be Canadian built. That would not be such a bad thing if we can find a way to make that plant be able to be in business for decades after the Via contracts are filled.

 

[cplchanb]

My thinking is/was that due to parts of them being made on both sides of the border, and other places, the contract we signed for and budgeted for may no longer be valid. And if it goes up, could that mean we do not get as many? And if that happens, does this mean the changeover to the new fleet may get delayed even more?


I could see the LDF, and any future HSR fleet be Canadian built. That would not be such a bad thing if we can find a way to make that plant be able to be in business for decades after the Via contracts are filled.

it would be a disaster if we were to build the HSR fleet TBH... we have zero expertise and i predict it will be full of technical glitches and years of delays as a result. I would rather see siemens or alstom europe build them or even the japanese and ship them over here.
its been demonstrated time and time again that unfortunately we are unable to reliably develop an indigenous rail program other than the bi levels.

 

[Bordercollie]

it would be a disaster if we were to build the HSR fleet TBH... we have zero expertise and i predict it will be full of technical glitches and years of delays as a result. I would rather see siemens or alstom europe build them or even the japanese and ship them over here.
its been demonstrated time and time again that unfortunately we are unable to reliably develop an indigenous rail program other than the bi levels.

Why would you say that? The basic skills required to build conventional rail equipment and high speed is the same except for the tolerances.
The builders follow the specs which can be developed anywhere.

 

[micheal_can]

it would be a disaster if we were to build the HSR fleet TBH... we have zero expertise and i predict it will be full of technical glitches and years of delays as a result. I would rather see siemens or alstom europe build them or even the japanese and ship them over here.
its been demonstrated time and time again that unfortunately we are unable to reliably develop an indigenous rail program other than the bi levels.

What about working with European companies for them to set up shop in Canada?

 

[lenaitch]

It's a similar issue to defence production. Unless we can offer something very attractive to a foreign company, like really cheap labour or some other 'hook', what is there to compel them to spend money to set up shop here for a comparatively small order book?

I don't necessarily agree that the required skills are the same. We build rail cars, but I don't believe we build power units anymore.

It is similar to our National Shipbuilding Program. We let the industry wither and are now trying to build it back up with gazillions of federal money in order to re-create an indigenous maritime industry. The one advantage in that case is ships take so long to build, and we are in such dire need of many hulls of multiple types that, hopefully, the industry doesn't wither again. Once VIA/HSR creates their modern fleet, what's left to build? Overseas orders? Maybe, if we have a marketable advantage that wins out against other countries trying to do the same thing.

 

[cplchanb]

Why would you say that? The basic skills required to build conventional rail equipment and high speed is the same except for the tolerances.
The builders follow the specs which can be developed anywhere.

tell me when was the last time anyone here built a multiple unit, let again anything that resembled a high speed train? the bombardier gas turbine train that failed to sell 25 years ago?
theres no expertise in this microsector. people need to know how to build it beyond reading the instructions.

 

[cplchanb]

What about working with European companies for them to set up shop in Canada?

unless via suddenly has a fetish for national electrification and route expansion of HSR this is will be a generational one off... there is zero incentive nor RoI to set up shop here when they will build nothing else for 50 years after the initial order or maybe 1 add on.

 

[crs1026]

tell me when was the last time anyone here built a multiple unit, let again anything that resembled a high speed train? the bombardier gas turbine train that failed to sell 25 years ago?
theres no expertise in this microsector. people need to know how to build it beyond reading the instructions.

Hey, Nothing wrong with the LRC’s!

But that was a long time ago, and as noted there is little prospect of opening a railcar manufacturing facility as there is no continuing supply of orders.

Doesn’t mean we can’t buy trains if we need to.

The trainset procurement is not the weak link in our HSR prospects…. It’s the capital investment needed to acquire and build the right of way, and the bureaucracy to design it.
Lots of civil engineering and construction expertise and labour available to construct grade separations and trackbed. Even track laying. But the sheer amount needed for HSR is the problem.
Signalling and electrification is specialised, and of course the railcars, but that’s not what makes the price so high. And it is procurable offshore.
A diesel based 110 mph platform is way, way cheaper. Selected 125 mph segments are affordable and improve ROI. But full HSR is a quantum leap beyond that, at a time when we may not be in a mood to spend

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

unless via suddenly has a fetish for national electrification and route expansion of HSR this is will be a generational one off... there is zero incentive nor RoI to set up shop here when they will build nothing else for 50 years after the initial order or maybe 1 add on.

Good point. So, unless we decide to build HSR across Canada, there is no point.

 

[MisterF]

unless via suddenly has a fetish for national electrification and route expansion of HSR this is will be a generational one off... there is zero incentive nor RoI to set up shop here when they will build nothing else for 50 years after the initial order or maybe 1 add on.

I think there are lots of opportunities to build and improve rail in this country after HSR/HFR is built. That and GO expansion could create the momentum for further expansion all over the Corridor. HSR, even in the limited form that we're likely to see, works best when it's part of a robust system of conventional rail. Southern and SW Ontario has a lot of cities in a small area - Kitchener, Cambridge, Brantford, Guelph, London, Hamilton, Niagara Region - but the rail connectivity between cities is terrible. Beyond that, trains to Collingwood could be viable as an alternative to highway expansion. Sherbrooke and the Eastern Townships could get service again. The missing link enabling further expansion in the GTA. Not to mention GO trains to Bolton, Uxbridge, etc.. These are all projects that could happen after HFR and it would take decades to build them all.

Other parts of the country would have more limited opportunities. The Prairies and Maritimes have built extensive highway systems for their populations so trains are always going to be harder to justify there. But the Corridor is full of potential.

I have no opinion on whether we should build a domestic rail industry comparable to the National Shipbuilding Strategy. I'm just saying we shouldn't dismiss HSR as a one-off.

 

[Bordercollie]

It's a similar issue to defence production. Unless we can offer something very attractive to a foreign company, like really cheap labour or some other 'hook', what is there to compel them to spend money to set up shop here for a comparatively small order book?

I don't necessarily agree that the required skills are the same. We build rail cars, but I don't believe we build power units anymore.

It is similar to our National Shipbuilding Program. We let the industry wither and are now trying to build it back up with gazillions of federal money in order to re-create an indigenous maritime industry. The one advantage in that case is ships take so long to build, and we are in such dire need of many hulls of multiple types that, hopefully, the industry doesn't wither again. Once VIA/HSR creates their modern fleet, what's left to build? Overseas orders? Maybe, if we have a marketable advantage that wins out against other countries trying to do the same thing.

Think about it, the winning bidder will get the contact to maintain the trains and infrastructure for 30 years. I think that's pretty good incentive, building parts and materials, accessories for 30 years.

 

[Urban Sky]

Think about it, the winning bidder will get the contact to maintain the trains and infrastructure for 30 years. I think that's pretty good incentive, building parts and materials, accessories for 30 years.

You can’t sustain an entire factory on producing spare parts for a fleet of only 300 cars, even if it wasn’t for the fact that almost all these parts are produced by suppliers and only assembled at said factory…

 

[micheal_can]

You can’t sustain an entire factory on producing spare parts for a fleet of only 300 cars, even if it wasn’t for the fact that almost all these parts are produced by suppliers and only assembled at said factory…

How many per year would be needed to sustain a plant for decades?

 

[lenaitch]

Think about it, the winning bidder will get the contact to maintain the trains and infrastructure for 30 years. I think that's pretty good incentive, building parts and materials, accessories for 30 years.

Maintenance and assembly are completely different.