VIA Rail

[Darwinkgo]

I think people are looking at this the wrong way - like CP/CN would somehow force themselves onto the line. I say the company which will design, build, operate, and finance HFR will WANT all potential revenue they can get that doesn't degrade their business case (creates more maintenance issues that the benefits, interferes with train movements).

Why would HFR Infrastructure Operating Co. leave money on the table if CN or CP at some point would enjoy a bit of extra capacity? Like if Amtrak and Metra came together to decongest Chicago for the benefit of passenger trains, you think they'd leave the infrastructure idle in the middle of the night when the freight RR are crying out for capacity?

 

[DirectionNorth]

^By the way, whenever we discuss HFR we assume VIA will “own” the Havelock and Trois Rivieres lines. I wonder if that actually implies clear title. I have forgotten - does CP still own those rights of way today, or did they divest them eg to Telecom companies and shortline railways?

VIA might simply become a tenant, and that leaves lots of room for fine print. I’m sure ViA would negotiate for primacy in use of the line, but other stakeholders might retain some lesser use.

- Paul

For the Havelock Sub, everything I found implies that CP still owns the line. I would think that since it is abandoned, VIA will be able to buy it on the cheap. It's not as if it has much value to CP.

The Trois Rivieres Sub is still in use, owned by Genesee and Wyoming. I would imagine that it is still profitable, so VIA would probably just lease it.

 

[roger1818]

I think people are looking at this the wrong way - like CP/CN would somehow force themselves onto the line. I say the company which will design, build, operate, and finance HFR will WANT all potential revenue they can get that doesn't degrade their business case (creates more maintenance issues that the benefits, interferes with train movements).

Why would HFR Infrastructure Operating Co. leave money on the table if CN or CP at some point would enjoy a bit of extra capacity? Like if Amtrak and Metra came together to decongest Chicago for the benefit of passenger trains, you think they'd leave the infrastructure idle in the middle of the night when the freight RR are crying out for capacity?

It comes down to risk vs. reward. Is the remuneration VIA receives (minus any additional expenses) from the freight railways worth the risk to their operations?

Even if you were to assume freight trains to be equally reliable to passenger trains, the more trains that run on the track, the greater the chance of breakdown or derailment occurring. With single track, having a freight train blocking the track would require VIA to have some type of detour and although those costs could potentially be covered by the freight railway, it would still damage VIA's reputation for providing reliable service.

Even worse would be if a heavy freight car were to damage the track and cause a following passenger train to derail and result in casualties.

There will be places where VIA agrees to share the tracks with freight trains, but I don't see it as being something that they actively market.

 

[crs1026]

For the Havelock Sub, everything I found implies that CP still owns the line. I would think that since it is abandoned, VIA will be able to buy it on the cheap. It's not as if it has much value to CP.

The Trois Rivieres Sub is still in use, owned by Genesee and Wyoming. I would imagine that it is still profitable, so VIA would probably just lease it.

For the Havelock to still be in CP's hands 50 years after abandonment suggests that it must have some value, at least beyond the cost of the taxes. IIRC there is telecom along it. CP/CN telecom may have been the initial user that argued for retention, who knows what's buried along there today.

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

^ 32 HFR trains per day = 32 x 36 axles nominally, = 1152 axles per day.

One freight train = 600 axles +.

So the wear and tear of even low frequency freight use is material. The variables would at minimum be how much more frequently the line would need surfacing to restore superelevation. And maybe how much sooner rail would have to be replaced, especially on curves. Maybe VIA would require curve lubrication in more places.

Absent additional siding capacity (VIA sidings will likely be as per their existing lines - maybe 2500 feet in length), there would be a freight curfew of "not before end of HFR service and must clear well before start of HFR service". That's maybe a 6 hour window to transit the line. One way only, unless meeting points are built. Huge risk (penalties?) if a freight breaks down en route overnight and blocks the next day's VIA service. Impact on Maintenance, which might need an unbroken work window at night for some tasks.

Will VIA install PTC or some similar signalling system? How much will CN/CP invest in maintaining the qualification of its personnel to operate on this route?

While Amtrak does handle local freight on the Northeast Corridor, the line simply does not open up to freight at sundown.

- Paul

 

[Frank_Lee]

It also likely prohibits the running of overnight trains. Although they might not have a huge market, are definitely something that some people would be interested in.

 

[Darwinkgo]

^ 32 HFR trains per day = 32 x 36 axles nominally, = 1152 axles per day.

One freight train = 600 axles +.

So the wear and tear of even low frequency freight use is material. The variables would at minimum be how much more frequently the line would need surfacing to restore superelevation. And maybe how much sooner rail would have to be replaced, especially on curves. Maybe VIA would require curve lubrication in more places.

Absent additional siding capacity (VIA sidings will likely be as per their existing lines - maybe 2500 feet in length), there would be a freight curfew of "not before end of HFR service and must clear well before start of HFR service". That's maybe a 6 hour window to transit the line. One way only, unless meeting points are built. Huge risk (penalties?) if a freight breaks down en route overnight and blocks the next day's VIA service. Impact on Maintenance, which might need an unbroken work window at night for some tasks.

Will VIA install PTC or some similar signalling system? How much will CN/CP invest in maintaining the qualification of its personnel to operate on this route?

While Amtrak does handle local freight on the Northeast Corridor, the line simply does not open up to freight at sundown.

- Paul

I don't think anyone is arguing that they should have access for even just cost recovery - having those axles helps carry the financial burden - why leave the money on the table? Just saying, you shouldn't be surprised if it does come to pass.

 

[lenaitch]

For the Havelock to still be in CP's hands 50 years after abandonment suggests that it must have some value, at least beyond the cost of the taxes. IIRC there is telecom along it. CP/CN telecom may have been the initial user that argued for retention, who knows what's buried along there today.

- Paul

There might be some confusion. Clearly, the current Havelock sub is still in CP's hands. Are folks talking about Havelock to Smiths Falls? It appears that in a couple of villages, the former ROW has been built over or at least encroached upon. The ownership of former rights of way, particularly when it still looks like a ROW just without the rails, has always confused me.

 

[Northern Light]

There might be some confusion. Clearly, the current Havelock sub is still in CP's hands. Are folks talking about Havelock to Smiths Falls? It appears that in a couple of villages, the former ROW has been built over or at least encroached upon. The ownership of former rights of way, particularly when it still looks like a ROW just without the rails, has always confused me.

I will say it again......there's nothing like a @lenaitch post to send me down rabbit holes.....

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_and_Quebec_Railway

Now, I think its only fair that Lenaitch tell us who CP has to return an important chunk of its eastern mainline to in the year 2883.

 

[Northern Light]

Upon further investigation.........the trail (former ROW) east of Tweed, where it is known as Hastings County Trail is owned by Hastings County and the Province. (or was as at 2019)

Taking over the Hastings Heritage Trail

Hastings County is interested in taking over the Hastings Heritage Trail, but wants to make sure the province ...

www.quintenews.com

 

[crs1026]

I will say it again......there's nothing like a @lenaitch post to send me down rabbit holes.....

You too, huh?

A little random Googling brought me to a couple of interesting documents - Sharbot Lakes’s Official Plan (which does acknowledge the potential HFR) as well as this link to the Tay Havelock Trail which has a variety of smaller segments outlined on the Great Trail website.

There is also the Eastern Ontario Trails Alliance which appears to have secured the ability to charge for use of the line as a trailway. See here for commentary about the Hastings County section and a very recent EOTA agreement with Hastings County. These minutes from Hastings County have interesting comments suggesting that they own at least some of the former CP line and are in the process of purchasing more.

And this, hot off the press, about the desire for funding for said trail.

I was not aware that such rail trails were pay-to-use similar to many conservation areas. I had a loose plan to try and cycle some of this route post-covid, before VIA could get mobilised. I may have to wait until VIA is selling the passes.

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

I will say it again......there's nothing like a @lenaitch post to send me down rabbit holes.....

View attachment 324656

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_and_Quebec_Railway

Now, I think its only fair that Lenaitch tell us who CP has to return an important chunk of its eastern mainline to in the year 2883.

Sorry?

I had forgotten about the court action until you mentioned it. Further digging revealed this from, I think 2005. If it is correct and I understand it correctly, the O&Q was finally amalgamated into CP in 1998. It still does not clarify the ownership status of the ROW except the pieces mentioned above. If ownership of sections have transferred to others, it will no doubt add to the cost.

Old Time Trains

 

[Northern Light]

Sorry?

I had forgotten about the court action until you mentioned it. Further digging revealed this from, I think 2005. If it is correct and I understand it correctly, the O&Q was finally amalgamated into CP in 1998. It still does not clarify the ownership status of the ROW except the pieces mentioned above. If ownership of sections have transferred to others, it will no doubt add to the cost.

Old Time Trains

LOL, no need to apologize, no apology was solicited.

You periodically make interesting observations that demand further examination.............this sometimes requires some degree of digging.

Not a bad thing!

 

[Bordercollie]

It also likely prohibits the running of overnight trains. Although they might have a huge market, are definitely something that some people would be interested in.

If you were to bring back the enterprise between Toronto and Montreal Thru Ottawa, its only one train in each direction. with Bi-directional running you could still close one track for maintenance and still be able to run the train. Besides you aren't going to do maintenance on the whole line every night anyways, you should be able to do it in sections.

 

[roger1818]

If you were to bring back the enterprise between Toronto and Montreal Thru Ottawa, its only one train in each direction. with Bi-directional running you could still close one track for maintenance and still be able to run the train. Besides you aren't going to do maintenance on the whole line every night anyways, you should be able to do it in sections.

Regarding maintenance, you are forgetting that it will likely be primarily single track, with occasional passing tracks, so for most of the line there is no alternate track to "run the train" on. Having said that, if they did bring back The Enterprise (I'm not holding my breath), they could ensure the trains run past before or after the maintenance on that section.