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VIA Rail

How does city benefit from rail plan?

Re: "City supports Via`s passenger line plan," Aug. 10

And so the new, dedicated VIA rail line will run near Sharbot Lake, almost an hour's drive to the north, probably more in winter. Given that you'd have to be at the Sharbot Lake station, assuming there will be one, ahead of time, it would be just as fast to drive to Montreal, Toronto and Ottawa from Kingston. Just how does this translate into better passenger rail service for Kingston (and Belleville and Brockville)? Am I missing something?

Kenneth Lee

Kingston http://www.thewhig.com/2017/08/13/letters-to-the-editor-august-14
 
Paul Langan said:
How does city benefit from rail plan?

Re: "City supports Via`s passenger line plan," Aug. 10

And so the new, dedicated VIA rail line will run near Sharbot Lake, almost an hour's drive to the north, probably more in winter. Given that you'd have to be at the Sharbot Lake station, assuming there will be one, ahead of time, it would be just as fast to drive to Montreal, Toronto and Ottawa from Kingston. Just how does this translate into better passenger rail service for Kingston (and Belleville and Brockville)? Am I missing something?

Kenneth Lee

Kingston http://www.thewhig.com/2017/08/13/letters-to-the-editor-august-14
Click to expand...
Sure you are.
That’s why I’m fully supportive of VIA Rail’s proposed expansion of rail service in Eastern Ontario. The core of this plan is a new passenger dedicated rail line, and although this new rail line won’t run through Kingston, the overall effect on our city’s rail service will be significant. With this new rail line Kingston will be transformed into a regional hub for rail service in Eastern Ontario. Kingston is currently a midway stop between Toronto and Montreal, Toronto and Ottawa, and that means limited train schedules. Right now you can’t catch an early morning train from Kingston to Ottawa or a late evening train from Toronto to Kingston.

However, with Kingston as a regional rail hub, trains would start and end here, meaning far more convenient train schedules. For example, if you are in Kingston, you could catch an early morning train to Toronto, Ottawa or Montreal and then catch an evening train back. If you are in Toronto, Ottawa or Montreal, the same options of early morning and late evening trains would be available. Whether coming into Kingston or leaving, travel options by train would be significantly better.
Click to expand...
https://mayorpaterson.com/2017/07/27/proposed-via-rail-expansion-in-eastern-ontario/
http://globalnews.ca/video/3645692/...-to-via-rail-and-how-they-may-impact-kingston
Although the HFR proposal does not go through Kingston, it would take trains off of the CN line, therefore freeing up space, and those spaces could be used for new trains departing from Kingston to Toronto, Montreal, and Ottawa. Or at least as your mayor says.
 
Paul Langan said:
How does city benefit from rail plan?
Click to expand...
It's already been explained quite a few times. Of course, the fact that Kingston council voted unanimously to support this, as did every other surrounding or adjacent municipality affected, seems to count for naught to you. Perhaps the onus is on you to explain why everyone else is wrong, and you're right?

How's that High Speed Rail coming along there? Here's Paul touting the wisdom of running High Speed Rail through Peterborough to Ottawa. Gosh! What about those folks in Kingston, Paul? How does it help them? (Jump to one minute in on the vid to hear the Peterborough option)
 
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That arrow on Mayor Paterson's web page is a bit straighter than the real thing (a dog leg through Brockville).
 
If the HFR/HSP rail line goes to Ottawa via Brockville then I can certainly see the benefits to Kingston but if it takes the Peterborough route then I think this will make travel to Kingston much, much worse.

Kingston is certainly the hub of Eastern Ontario and has a major university but still is a relatively small city of 150,000. If the HSR lines goes an hour north of the city, then there is no way Kingston will have the population to support more trains. In order to get more passengers it is going to have to stop at every little hick-town along the way making the trip to Mon & Tor much slower than it currently is.

Kingston isn't even a third the size of London and much of it's passengers divide between Mon/Ott/Tor as opposed to London where nearly all the traffic is heading into Toronto alone. No doubt if the northern route is taken, VIA will swear on the bible that better service is "on it's way" which means decades down the road if they are lucky. If VIA is set on the northern route VIA officials must be beside themselves with glee that the mayor of Kingston could be so incredibly naïve.
 
VIA's assurances that they will maintain good service on the existing route, and work towards the "hub" idea for Kingston, mean nothing if Ottawa isn't willing to subsidise the service.
VIA is emphasising that HFR will lead to a subsidy-free corridor operation (well, servicing all that capital expense may include an element of subsidy, but in theory HFR is said to be able to recover that cost). I'd sure like to know how the economics of the Lakeshore line will change once the through Ottawa-Montreal revenue moves to HFR.
VIA's intentions may be honourable, but they don't call the shots regarding subsidy. Ottawa does that.

- Paul
 
ssiguy2 said:
In order to get more passengers it is going to have to stop at every little hick-town along the way making the trip to Mon & Tor much slower than it currently is.
Click to expand...
This epitomizes the naysayer's desperate cause. Since there aren't currently any trains in the morning or evening to serve Kingston to Toronto, or Montreal or Ottawa, it's a tad moot, wouldn't you say?

Here's a bold idea: Why not listen to the wishes of the vast majority of those affected? Just a thought...

Just to review what's being proposed:
[...]
“Kingston will become a key regional hub,” Via Rail spokesperson Mariam Diaby wrote in an email to the Whig-Standard. “VIA Rail’s train schedule will be tailored to the needs of the communities along the existing Kingston-Toronto, Kingston-Ottawa and, Kingston-Montreal corridor.”

The new schedule is to include trains arriving and leaving in Kingston “first thing in the morning and at end of the work day,” Diaby wrote.

“In addition, it will allow for late evening trains that would allow people to go back and forth into the larger cities (Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal) for evening events.”

The high frequency rail plan is meant to allow Via to operate trains on a more frequent basis, solving what the company says is the biggest obstacle to travellers choosing the train.

A dedicated passenger train line would allow up to 15 departures per day from major centres, instead of the current six departures. [...]
Click to expand...
http://www.thewhig.com/2017/08/09/city-council-supports-via-rail-expansion

Why, it'll cause all sorts of problems! Genital herpes, hare lips and and hangnails, just to name a few...
 
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crs1026 said:
Aaand the rationale for forming an investment bank to borrow money at somewhat higher rates to be used for the same purpose is ......... ??????

- Paul
Click to expand...
Rates have not been set in any way for the IB. The problem isn't rates, it's breaks. What deal do investors get that is guaranteed in whole or part by federal participation? The problem isn't rates at all, it's how the deals are structured, and they can work well if this is set-up properly on a *deal by deal basis*. No one deal will be the same terms as another. There's a very real 'danger' (in nationalist terms) that foreign capital, which is avid to invest in Cdn transportation infrastructure, will go *around* the IB, and thus any tether the Feds might have on marshalling investment and development might disappear, and then we'll have nationalists moaning about the "Yellow Peril". That's already been the case in the Oil Patch and Mining.

But getting back to CN and VIA, and Gormick's piece:
cplchanb said:
well more the reason to lay down dedicated track along key corridors. Too bad we are downright broke
Click to expand...
It must be remembered that HFR as projected by D-S is for a private RoW, and government owned/operated VIA running over it. The key point is for *dedicated tracks* (albeit that's not absolute, if VIA has precedence over other users, that would all be in the contractual terms of lease). And Amtrak has *not* fared better, only the North East Corridor, which they own, and lease back rights to other operators, including freight, on their own terms.

As for CN and Amtrak:

[PDF]amtrak calls on surface transporation board to investigate canadian ...
https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/306/.../Amtrak-STB-Investigation-CN-ATK-14-078.pd...
Sep 2, 2014 - Amtrak is seeking an investigation of Canadian National Railway (CN) for .... On May 21, 2012, the District Court granted summary judgment in favor of the ..... investigate and “obtain information from all parties involved. . .”33.
Appeals court rejects on-time performance standards | Trains Magazine
trn.trains.com › News › News Wire
Jul 14, 2017 - Amtrak's southbound 'Saluki' rolls past the Canadian National yard into ... The appeals court ruling, written by Chief Judge Lavenski R. Smith, says that the .... and got them off the passenger hook, i.e., access and performance.
Judge sides with freight carriers in Amtrak time-keeping case | Trains ...
trn.trains.com › News › News Wire
Mar 24, 2017 - WASHINGTON – A ruling issued Thursday by the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia is likely to be the final decision in a case that ...
Missing: access
Amtrak's Sisyphean struggle to run on time - Railway Age
www.railwayage.com/index.php/.../amtraks-sisyphean-struggle-to-run-on-time.html
Jul 5, 2013 - Congress created the priority access right in 1973 out of frustration with bankrupt Penn ... Amtrak passenger train delays were traced, largely, to host freight railroad ... CN countered that Amtrak's conductor-delay reports were unreliable. ... The appellate court likened the PRIIA provision at issue to Congress ...
RAIL: As punctuality plummets, Amtrak confronts freight in Supreme ...
https://www.eenews.net/stories/1060008220
Oct 31, 2014 - As punctuality plummets, Amtrak confronts freight in Supreme Court ... Canadian National Railway Co. for allegedly shunting Amtrak trains onto ...
Missing: access
US court rules Amtrak has too much power over freight carriers - Reuters
www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-court-amtrak-idUSKCN0XQ1XX
Apr 29, 2016 - U.S. government-owned passenger rail company Amtrak wields improper and coercive regulatory power over private freight carriers under a ...
Missing: cn ‎access
44076 - Decision - Surface Transportation Board
https://www.stb.gov/decisions/readingroom.../6909c80b928a148685257db30053c4c...
[2] Unless the Supreme Court reverses the D.C. Circuit's decision, Amtrak cannot ... The Board will grant Amtrak's motion to amend its complaint and deny CN's .... to enforce its access rights on the lines of rail carriers that host Amtrak service.
Oil-Laden Freight Trains Delaying Amtrak, Commuter Trains Across ...
chi.streetsblog.org/.../oil-laden-freight-trains-delaying-amtrak-commuter-trains-across...
Aug 14, 2014 - Nationwide, the number of delayed Amtrak trains has increased by ... from a court ruling that left Amtrak powerless against freight train interference. ... CN BNSF owns the tracks in dark gray. CN owns track in red. Map .... They need to be able to access and utilize that network to recoup their investment.

And so on...the point is very clear for VIA in this nation, not even having a fraction of the legal status that Amtrak does in the US: They have to have their own tracks, either leased or outright owned, to run a modern, efficient, reliable and *frequent* service. And that's been Desjardin-Siciliano's claim for two years now.
 
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curious on that note, Im not sure if it has been mentioned before, but is there enough room to lay down dedicated parallel tracks along the entirety of the corridor? I recall when taking a Montreal to Toronto train once, there were
long sections of just nothing and it appears that if they wanted to they could in theory put more track and call it theirs.
 
Is CN trying to kill Via Rail?
https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/analysis/is-cn-trying-to-kill-via-rail-440457023.html

What is most infuriating is the continuous timid spineless nature of the Federal Government to rein in the freight railway companies. In all honesty, I have no faith that ViaRail will ever get their so called HFR scheme running.

On a sidenote, anyone have any word on what the outcome of the latest tender for ViaRail's new rolling stock? Last time I read anything related to it was commentary (inside knowledge) about how "well known" rail rolling stock manufacturers declined to even offer bids due to past experiences of getting burned by ViaRail tenders.
 
steveintoronto said:
This epitomizes the naysayer's desperate cause. Since there aren't currently any trains in the morning or evening to serve Kingston to Toronto, or Montreal or Ottawa, it's a tad moot, wouldn't you say?
Click to expand...
It seems to me you were so desperate to reach for sarcasm you made a point which is not even slightly true.

If what you meant was commuter services, you should acquaint yourself with train 651.
 
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