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VIA Rail

I agree. And I do not understand the logic of abandoning the existing routes from Quebec City / Montreal / Brockville/ Kingston/Toronto to some sort of degraded level of service from what exists now. Peterborough could easily be a regional GO Transit connection (as can be KW, and even Brantford). The more I read about this 'project' the more I agree it is set up to fail. They seem to be envisioning another HS2 concept, and no where do I see any numbers that make that concept work.
The feds have promised that there will be no reduction in service from existing levels on the existing corridor. In fact you will probably see an increase in service at some stations, as less express trains are needed, those will be dedicated to the HFR routing.

The lines on the existing corridor are private railways that have the final say on expansions, amounts of trains etc.

These companies (CN/CP) are also some of the largest in Canada, and largest freight companies in the world. They hold significant clout in the government through lobbying etc.

They refuse to allow development of any reasonable passenger rail through this corridor.

What other options are there? I'd love to hear it.

Also: having a separate route is always advantageous for reliability. Lets say an issue happens on one line, while some stops and stations will be affected, you can still route trains around using the other line and offer some level of continued service.
 
This is the only available connection which shows up when you try to book from Trenton to Montreal:
View attachment 444691

7 hours for 377 km (470 km with the Ottawa detour) - isn't this amazing...?

There's about 2-3 trains to Toronto and Ottawa. But the times are poor. No early departures if you have a day off. The evening departures are way too late to make arrival in Toronto or Ottawa useful. Belleville has more options. But it's a $50 cab ride.

All the folks who weren't from Ontario and wanted to spend a weekend in Toronto or Ottawa or Montreal noticed how inconvenient the schedules were.

After that experience, I'm absolutely sold on the Kingston hub. The current services are pretty useless to anybody outside the big metros and a few stations like Kingston, Belleville and Cornwall.
 
It would be quite rational to propose enforced co-production, but I can't see Ottawa stepping into this one right now, and certainly not just to solve something that isn't a problem (yet) in Southern Ontario.

The time may come when various agendas come together and the concept of transitioning to a publicly-owned track network with private operators may be up for discussion.

But I can't see it happening any time soon. And when it does, much bigger issues will be at the forefront.

- Paul
Co-production, enforced or otherwise, is different than expropriation (our term for the term 'eminent domain' used in the US) if, for no other reason that it removes the 'co' part. Unless the railways formed (or were required to form) a jointly owned legal entity on the remaining ROW, somebody loses their asset. Even at that, the owner of the remaining asset would likely want compensation for its diminished title. Otherwise, one becomes a tenant of the other.

Expropriation includes the concept of 'making whole'; basically meaning that 'seller' should be fairly compensated for all costs. When the state buys your house for a highway, your fair value will (or should) take into consideration fees, disbursements, moving costs, etc. to relocate. I suggest liberating a private rail line would be much more complicated. If, say, the government forced CN to move its business onto CP, in addition to sorting out the ownership of the remaining 'shared' asset, it would have to pay fair value for CN's asset. Both carriers would likely strongly argue that it would also have to pay to upgrade the remaining ROW so that neither's profitability is diminished and future-proofed, along with things like connection costs, lost customers and probably dozens of other costs and diminishments that I can't think of.

As you say, they are very good at lobbying; they are also very good at lawyering.
 
The Siemens fleet is bimodal. I suspect any HFR service launch will simply fit catenary on top and use diesel for the last 10%. The debate of what to do with the last 10% is probably only relevant to some future Venture fleet replacement after 2060.

The only way there's a new fleet is if HFR actually substantially morphs into HSR lite with the capacity to support substantially higher sustained speeds for large portions. That's highly unlikely, to need a new fleet, given that the Venture fleet is rated till 201 kph.
where does it say that the via chargers are panto ready?
 
where does it say that the via chargers are panto ready?
I’m only aware of a “required provision for future diesel and electric operation”, which was included in the RFQ documents:
3B880F63-06FE-492A-BF72-C3371F321CBD.jpeg

 
where does it say that the via chargers are panto ready?

The Charger was based on the Vectron. And they have dual mode versions in Europe. Here's some footage of testing:


So I would assume that when Siemens bid the Charger locomotives as capable of dual-mode the ability to use OCS is what they intended.

Should also be missed noted that Siemens has a number of orders for ALC-42E Dual Mode Chargers from Amtrak and Metro North. I believe some of those are being fitted for third rail and some of those are being fitted with pantos. Siemens is even building battery cars for Amtrak. And all of this will enter service by 2025. So if it's a question of modification and addition to the Charger-Venture fleet vs. new fleet, I don't think there's going to be much of contest. They'll dual mode the entire fleet so that even Lakeshore and Corridor West services can take advantage of electrified GO network. And they'll just buy some battery cars to address gaps where there's neither overhead power available or diesel operation allowed.
 
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The feds have promised that there will be no reduction in service from existing levels on the existing corridor. In fact you will probably see an increase in service at some stations, as less express trains are needed, those will be dedicated to the HFR routing.

The lines on the existing corridor are private railways that have the final say on expansions, amounts of trains etc.

These companies (CN/CP) are also some of the largest in Canada, and largest freight companies in the world. They hold significant clout in the government through lobbying etc.

They refuse to allow development of any reasonable passenger rail through this corridor.

What other options are there? I'd love to hear it.

Also: having a separate route is always advantageous for reliability. Lets say an issue happens on one line, while some stops and stations will be affected, you can still route trains around using the other line and offer some level of continued service.
I am aware of most of this and accept it to a degree

The feds may promise no reduction in service and we can accept that, although experience does not lend total credibility to that promise. I would argue that service to existing population areas should be increased both in frequency and speed.

CN and CP most likely have valid arguments. I am not an expert in their train frequencies over specific routes, but I would question how fully utilized they are, even the TOR/MTL route. I understand there are possibly other mitigating factors to allowing further trains on certain routs using todays train control technologies and the existing track.

I would ague the case that the fed's should use their powers to expand ROW's where needed to allow for additional track to be added to routes where geography already favours railways, allowing dedicated VIA usage at higher sustained speeds and frequencies. This could certainly be done incrementally and possibly incorporate new technologies (for VIA) in electric and/or hydrogen power. There might even be some benefits to others sharing an expanded row i.e. CP/CN

I believe that ridership figures would improve with speed and frequency. The service from MTL to TOR is ok, but shave some time off of that trip by enabling continuous sustained high speed use, say above 150 kmh, and closer to 200 kmh. At least to begin with. Could we enable and sustain higher speeds then that? In rugged climate and geography? China does it, and even in horrendous weather that I have experienced in locales in China, train speeds never fell to VIA levels (Although ALL highways would just shut down). But that is a vastly different economic model based on a country of 1.4 billion people. By comparison, Canada's current population is 38.4 million. although some would contend that our 'ideal' population would be 100 million.

Korea is also an interesting country to examine for comparisons.

The focus of these improvements should begin with the TOR to Quebec City corridor, with Ottawa added in (service from Brockville and Montreal).

I do not believe Ottawa will ever build a new rail line from Quebec City to Toronto via Montreal, Ottawa and Peterborough. Absolute fantasy. But I also think that the science and technology of railroading lags, and the entrepreneurial pizzaz is AWOL. Some of this might be due to the overreaching and stuffy nature of the governmental boards overseeing railroad operations, and some of it might be due to 'precision' railroading,. There appears to be much further potential for rail to be a greater part of our transportation mix and it is frustrating to see study after study over pie in the sky concepts.

Bring back the Turbo Train. Now that was adventurous fun.
 
Ugggh. Every few months. New guy with, "Why can't the feds just expropriate everything to make us like [insert European or Asian example here]?"

Are any of you constitutional lawyers with an idea of how the federal government's powers of expropriation work? I would bet money it's nothing like how you imagine and the costs they would be compelled to pay by the courts would probably be multiples of what it costs to build a whole new line. Canada is not CPC run China. Stop with the fantasies of government just grabbing private assets with some procedural legislation.
 
Just a tad over the top with your reply? Perhaps? And not completely accurate. And I am not sure where you found my fantasies of grabbing private assets as they do in CPC China.

I would suggest the costing of any rail project proposed by the Government to date is certainly in the realm of fantasy at this point, including whatever expropriations would be necessary to acquire a new ROW for a new line. Would Crosstown be a viable marker as to what can happen with cost projections over an extended period of time? Or perhaps TMX? The shipping program for both the navy and the coastguard? Muskrat Falls?

The feds and other governments (in conjunction with private sector services) have a long history of being well off the mark with costing various large scale projects, including legacy projects (which a new, from scratch line certainly would be). And you have a core population of 11-13 million (GTA to QC and Ottawa) to sustain ridership and essentially double the lines you are going to operate - the existing plus the legacy line.

Ontario once was 'providing' for an 11 billion investment in HSR just to get from London to Toronto - say 200 km's - by 2025. Do we see that happening? Cheap politics or naught, that was a big sell. Now we are just studying the problem and talking about adding separate tracks.

I am very pro rail in general, but just do not see that any government ponying up the funds for a new system extending from Quebec City to Toronto , especially one capable of sustained speeds of 300 kmh.
 
The actual electric chargers are supposed to be pretty similar to the baseline ones with a pantograph car added behind the loco, which does suggest to me that retrofitting dual mode capability may well be reasonable.
 
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Watching Morocco, a country with an identical population and 1/10th the economy of HSR, is depressing. Something is seriously wrong with VIA/Canada Rail because Toronto-Montreal should have been HSR for at least the past decade.
 
Watching Morocco, a country with an identical population and 1/10th the economy of HSR, is depressing. Something is seriously wrong with VIA/Canada Rail because Toronto-Montreal should have been HSR for at least the past decade.
impressive indeed - but that line has about 180km of true high speed tracks looking at it in Google Maps. This is on a ~315km route.

If 300km/h truly is being pursued on HFR now, we could end up with a similar service where about half the route is running at top speed where a new corridor is required anyway.
 
If 300km/h truly is being pursued on HFR now, we could end up with a similar service where about half the route is running at top speed where a new corridor is required anyway.

It's not. The entire conjecture is based on throwaway line from the minister that could have easily been a misspeak (maybe he meant 200 kph, as he announced at the launch of HFR?). It's also not reflected in any other communication, project document or leaked report. For example, I would think the REFOI might want to say something about 300 kph speed if something like that is envisioned. It doesn't.

If it's not a misspeak, I suspect it's just a minister talking loosely to get some attention and press.
 
Watching Morocco, a country with an identical population and 1/10th the economy of HSR, is depressing. Something is seriously wrong with VIA/Canada Rail because Toronto-Montreal should have been HSR for at least the past decade.

Because half of Morocco's population is along that 323 km route. If half of Canada's population fell between Toronto and Windsor, I assure the sales pitch would be much easier.

Impressive indeed - but that line has about 180km of true high speed tracks looking at it in Google Maps. This is on a ~315km route.

Yep. Half of it is basically conventional rail. Not all that different from what is being proposed for HFR.
 

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