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VIA Rail

His entire mantra is "HSR or bust", whereas Greg Gormick's entire business model is to sell reports which are unworkable enough to not result in any action but yet look compelling enough to spur the demand for further study (preferably to be commissioned to him). As for Paul Langan, he genuinely conflates this Nation's need for better intercity rail options with his personal preference for HSR. As opposed to GG, PL is just a tragic actor who is simply unaware that his advocacy is mostly welcomed by people who don't want any investments in intercity rail whatsoever...

Both miss the point that government(s) cannot be prodded into action by complaining and criticising. There may be lots to criticise, but unless a positive value proposition can be found that makes government look good by acting, nothing will be done.

- Paul
 
Well, I downloaded and read the document.

It was a very quick read..... the thing is redacted to the hilt, which does validate the complaint that the government is being hugely secretive about the report. There is understandable secrecy around commercial aspects, but the document is far from transparent.

In some ways that's a good thing, because it removes the temptation to challenge every statistic or figure. It would be too easy to get lost in the fine detail of specific numbers, but that is at the expense of not knowing the big picture at all, especially at least knowing that the NPV and ROI fall in a positive zone.

In particular, all route information is redacted. We know that Toronto and Quebec City are the end points, but not much in between, although the presumptive routing through Peterborough and Trois Rivieres is confirmable.
.
The few takewaways and insights that I noted: (PS - with so much redaction, reading between the lines is pretty close to a Rorschach test, but here goes..)

- There will be more than 50 kms of new track construction proposed (this was stated to explain that the scope triggers a fuller EA process)
- The report implies that where tracks continue to be shared, it's an all-CN routing. Not much mention of CP at all, which may imply that some of the scenarios involving CP were tangential or speculative or imposed at the political level
- One redacted comment about "There will be a bypass around... (redaction)"
- Considerable analysis presented to compare HSR vs HFR, and appearing to show that HSR isn't necessary and does not deliver better economic value. I'm sure the HSR proponents are itching to attack this data.
- There's a chart comparing international cities' GDP per capita that is half-redacted... the inference being that all the Canadian data points fall in the low-absolute-GDP band, so little room to argue for HSR as an economic lever because there's less to leverage,
- Confirms that the business case for diesel is better than for electric, but recognizing that a social goal/public policy thrust wouldn't be met.
- There is an implication that Indigenous issues will be complicated, by virtue of the project spanning so many different treaty areas and impacting any number of ongoing land claims and grievances. I have always suspected that this aspect is bigger than people generally assume. When there are many First Nations impacted, Ottawa will have to both address any specific issues that each FN may raise, but also ensure an overall standard of fairness and equity across all FN's. With potential precedent for any number of other non-rail infrastructure projects. Many treaties date from the original rail-building era, and there may be commitments or precedents or gotcha-statements that have been long forgotten but that may surface as we return to building new rail lines. If nothing else, railway-building is highly symbollic of colonisation, so may have sensitivities. Just a hunch on my part.

Much fanfare by HSRC about very little, I'm afraid.

- Paul
 
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Well, I downloaded and read the document.

It was a very quick read..... the thing is redacted to the hilt, which does validate the complaint that the government is being hugely secretive about the report. There is understandable secrecy around commercial aspects, but the document is far from transparent.

In some ways that's a good thing, because it removes the temptation to challenge every statistic or figure. It would be too easy to get lost in the fine detail of specific numbers, but that is at the expense of not knowing the big picture at all, especially at least knowing that the NPV and ROI fall in a positive zone.

In particular, all route information is redacted. We know that Toronto and Quebec City are the end points, but not much in between, although the presumptive routing through Peterborough and Trois Rivieres is confirmable.
.
The few takewaways and insights that I noted:

- There will be more than 50 kms of new track construction proposed (this was stated to explain that the scope triggers a fuller EA process)
- The report implies that where tracks continue to be shared, it's an all-CN routing. Not much mention of CP at all, which may imply that some of the scenarios involving CP were tangential or speculative or imposed at the political level
- One redacted comment about "There will be a bypass around... (redaction)"
- Considerable analysis presented to compare HSR vs HFR, and appearing to show that HSR isn't necessary and does not deliver better economic value. I'm sure the HSR proponents are itching to attack this data.
- There's a chart comparing international cities' GDP per capita that is half-redacted... the inference being that all the Canadian data points fall in the low-absolute-GDP band, so little room to argue for HSR as an economic lever because there's less to leverage,
- Confirms that the business case for diesel is better than for electric, but recognizing that a social goal/public policy thrust wouldn't be met.
- There is an implication that Indigenous issues will be complicated, by virtue of the project spanning so many different treaty areas and impacting any number of ongoing land claims and grievances. I have always suspected that this aspect is bigger than people generally assume. When there are many First Nations impacted, Ottawa will have to both address any specific issues that each FN may raise, but also ensure an overall standard of fairness and equity across all FN's. With potential precedent for any number of other non-rail infrastructure projects. Many treaties date from the original rail-building era, and there may be commitments or precedents or gotcha-statements that have been long forgotten but that may surface as we return to building new rail lines. Just a hunch on my part.

Much fanfare by HSRC about very little, I'm afraid.

- Paul
To get from Havelock to Perth would you need more than 50KM of new track?

Why would it be a shared line with CN?
 
I was not commenting on the quality of the Business Case (it must have evolved substantially since the last draft I last saw a few years ago), but on the likelihood that Paul Langan will make any educated and insightful assessments of it…
Ah - I'd assumed you weren't making personal attacks of Paul Langan - my apologies for the confusion.

I'm not sure how anyone can made educated and insightful assessments of that report, given how heavily redacted it is. Though it does make one wonder what they are so desperate to hide. They even redact the travel times ... despite having spoken publicly about them. So what's the secret?

The lack of transparency here is troubling.

Why would it be a shared line with CN?
If that's true, it means they aren't going through Peterborough. At the same time it's clear that (Option 2) is going through Peterborough, and is the only option being discussed. Ergo it isn't true that it will all be on CN.
 
Ah - I'd assumed you weren't making personal attacks of Paul Langan - my apologies for the confusion.

I'm not sure how anyone can made educated and insightful assessments of that report, given how heavily redacted it is. Though it does make one wonder what they are so desperate to hide. They even redact the travel times ... despite having spoken publicly about them. So what's the secret?

The lack of transparency here is troubling.
My point is that I'm the only who has seen any draft of the business case - and that was before the CIB got involved (i.e. several years ago). I agree that even 8 years after VIA announced that they are working on the HFR project, publicly available information is still frustratingly scant.

Therefore, my sole problem with Paul Langan here is that he calls the Business Case "deeply flawed" (just like he has for the last few years), even though he has seen - even after reading the heavily redacted version he published today - none of the relevant pieces of information necessary to actually assess the quality and dependability of the assumptions it is based on.

This is why I tend to agree with you ("HFR is an opaque black box where nobody knows what is inside") and strongly disagree with him ("Nobody outside of VIA and the government has seen the Business Case, but I still claim to know that it is deeply flawed")...
 
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- There will be more than 50 kms of new track construction proposed (this was stated to explain that the scope triggers a fuller EA process)
Any idea on what qualifies as "new track" in this report? Is it new ROW that is required? I'm assuming that laying new track in abandoned corridors doesn't count as "new track", since the Havelock Sub is significantly longer than that. Would laying new track next to an existing track qualify?

PS: Thanks for the summary!
 
- The report implies that where tracks continue to be shared, it's an all-CN routing. Not much mention of CP at all, which may imply that some of the scenarios involving CP were tangential or speculative or imposed at the political level

Presumably, as I have suspected all along, that VIA won't be sharing CP's track. That doesn't mean they won't be sharing their ROW though as VIA could lease (or buy) parts of CP's ROW and build their own track on it. It is odd that CP wouldn't share VIA's track to Peterborough, unless by sharing they mean VIA sharing another railways track and not another railway sharing VIA's track.
 
Any idea on what qualifies as "new track" in this report? Is it new ROW that is required? I'm assuming that laying new track in abandoned corridors doesn't count as "new track", since the Havelock Sub is significantly longer than that. Would laying new track next to an existing track qualify?

PS: Thanks for the summary!

I'm not a lawyer, but the exact wording of the Physical Activities Regulations reads



The construction, operation, decommissioning and abandonment of either of the following:

  • (a) a new railway line that is capable of carrying freight or of carrying passengers between cities and requires a total of 50 km or more of new right of way;

I guess it hinges on whether the abandoned portion of the Havelock Sub would be considered a " new right of way". I'm thinking it would be, since the old line was not only deconstructed, but the land was severed and title was passed to non-railways and used for non-railway purposes. But as I say, I'm not a lawyer. (Even if one disagrees, it is probably smarter to apply the more conservative interpretation and prevent a lengthy potential court challenge from somebody)

- Paul
 
Therefore, my sole problem with Paul Langan here is that he calls the Business Case "deeply flawed" (just like he has for the last few years), even though he has seen - even after reading the heavily redacted version he published today - none of the relevant pieces of information necessary to actually assess the quality and dependability of the assumptions it is based on.
I have no problems calling a business case, that the government and VIA have been deliberately hiding for years as "deeply flawed".

The entire section 9.7 (net present value analysis) is blacked out. While there might be some sensitive information there, there's no way that a percentage comparison to the base case shouldn't be there. That's a very deep flaw.
 
The entire section 9.7 (net present value analysis) is blacked out. While there might be some sensitive information there, there's no way that a percentage comparison to the base case shouldn't be there. That's a very deep flaw.

Should a government agency be giving out that information before potential bids? I certainly wouldn't want industry gaming my economic model.
 
Should a government agency be giving out that information before potential bids? I certainly wouldn't want industry gaming my economic model.
They absolutely should! TTC holds little back, and even secretive Metrolinx releases the business case numbers.
 

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