VIA Rail

[robmausser]

Why should VIA operate bus service in competition to provincial or private operators like Ontario Northland or Maritime Express?

Not saying they should. Just if they wanted to.

But you have to make everything into an argument so I understand why you're getting confrontational, oh omnipotent lord and master of Via Rail.

 

[E•MO•TION]

Also, I'm not sure how the two trains could be timed better given that 85 is timed to connect with 73, and 88 is timed to connect with 78.

I think there may be opportunity in the near future to operate 85 and 88 as a sort of 'reverse commuter' service at earlier slots with connections to and from 71 and 76.

Of course, this would be depending on the work being completed by Metrolinx.

 

[Urban Sky]

Not saying they should. Just if they wanted to.

But you have to make everything into an argument so I understand why you're getting confrontational, oh omnipotent lord and master of Via Rail.

I’m not trying to turn everything into an argument, I’m just trying to understand what the problem you are trying to solve actually is, while playing the devil’s advocate - with the devil of course being the legions of bean counters in Ottawa/Gatineau, as the ultimate disablers of any passenger rail improvement efforts...

 

[nfitz]

HFR would bring back service to Peterborough.

I suppose it would, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. Every plan VIA has cooked up since the early 1980s reopening of Gare du Palais has died. Most recently was the Liberal government killing VIA Fast.

Given Metrolinx's new plan that after consultation with VIA, blocks service on the line to Peterborough, it's pretty clear that the HFR alignment they proposed a couple of years ago isn't happening anytime soon. Has the current federal Transport Minister even mentioned the project? The previous one did, but I haven't heard anything from the current one. I also note that it wasn't namechecked in the mandate letter for the current minister.

Unless it's namechecked in the upcoming federal budget, I think we can give up on it. Personally, I'd prefer to see a return to VIA Fast, which can be done far more incrementally.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I find that the people who take the bus and train are different. And even though the ticket prices can be similar when purchased in advanced, I find that the train is more comfortable.

The cheaper the fare the more sketch the passenger. I don’t think I would ever take a Greyhound anywhere.

Greyhound: Apart from that, how was your experience today?

Probably listening to Talking Heads. BOOO!:( Too soon...

urbantoronto.ca

In the 1990s and early 2000s when I used to take trains in Eastern Europe I would almost always pay for first class. It’s not much more money, and I felt safer. Here in Canada the bus vs. train option is a sufficient divide.

 

[nfitz]

The mandate letter that was issued was an update with additions to the last one. It didn't explicitly name HFR but the mandate letter specifically mentions that everything mentioned is in addition to the previous one (since the current government hasn't changed).

True. I guess we'll see in the budget. I suspect that will be the last chance for this until the next federal election. Is there a date set for that?

 

[Urban Sky]

What the table doesn't tell you is that it is 272 km between Montreal-Quebec and 162km between Toronto and Havelock, so the Subsidies per Passenger km are $0.27 and $0.20 respectively. Still higher for Montreal-Quebec, but more reasonable and it does have better Ridership, Cost recovery and Occupancy Rate figures.

You are assuming that all passengers travel “end-to-end”, which would only be a valid assumption for services without any intermediary stations. Therefore, you unfortunately can’t calculate the “passenger-per-km” figure for any VIA service with the 1988 data I provided, as useful as that metric would be for any comparisons with present-day VIA...

 

[2transpo]

True. I guess we'll see in the budget. I suspect that will be the last chance for this until the next federal election. Is there a date set for that?

There isn't a date set for an election, but I would legitimately be surprised if one doesn't happen this year.

I personally don't see any way HFR slides through before the next election. Even if it does, the political instability caused by the election will more than likely see it cancelled. If the conservatives form the next government, which is a likely possibility, it is 120% dead.

 

[Bordercollie]

Why should VIA operate bus service in competition to provincial or private operators like Ontario Northland or Maritime Express?

It doesn't have to compete. They can contact out the bus service to who ever wants to bid for it. The point is that train service and bus service need to work together to attract riders. Especially after the pandemic.

 

[Bordercollie]

There isn't a date set for an election, but I would legitimately be surprised if one doesn't happen this year.

I personally don't see any way HFR slides through before the next election. Even if it does, the political instability caused by the election will more than likely see it cancelled. If the conservatives form the next government, which is a likely possibility, it is 120% dead.

I'm no expert but I don't think anyone has an appetite for an election this year. The concervatives need time to build their platform and everyone is concerned about the vaccine.

So far the government was able to pass bills with the help of the NDP. That's likely to continue for now unless something really blows up.

With the new administration in the US we should slowly see a return to having a relationship with the Americans which is one less hot topic.

 

[roger1818]

You are assuming that all passengers travel “end-to-end”, which would only be a valid assumption for services without any intermediary stations. Therefore, you unfortunately can’t calculate the “passenger-per-km” figure for any VIA service with the 1988 data I provided, as useful as that metric would be for any comparisons with present-day VIA...

That is a good point. I would expect a significant majority of passengers on the Montreal-Quebec train are going end to end, where as I would expect the exact opposite for Toronto-Havelock (a small minority would be traveling end to end). As a result, if we had the true passenger distance travelled, it would likely bring the passenger-km figures even closer together.

 

[SFO-YYZ]

Any updates on the new fleet?

 

[Urban Sky]

My point was that in the United States, when individual States call for new Amtrak services, it’s because they are prepared to pay for better transportation options for their citizens, whereas in Canada, individual provinces call for new VIA services to rid themselves from the financial obligation to run bus services along the corridor in question. I struggle to imagine any politician on Vancouver Island would demand restoration of the Malahat service if the province would have to contribute more to its operating deficit than what saving the failing bus service would cost. The reflex (as with the demise with Greyhound all across Western Canada) is: “Ottawa, help us, our regional bus services are failing! Please pay millions to restore VIA service, so that we can avoid paying hundred-thousands to preserve our bus services!”...

Following a private Email exchange in response to above post, I would like to precise that “individual provinces” should rather have referred to certain local (and vocal!) activists and politicians across the country than the actual provincial governments (which tend to be quite as unsupportive of publicly funded intercity bus service as they are for publicly funded intercity rail service).

I did search for some news articles which highlight the reflex of calling for restored VIA service when a Greyhound was abandoning most of this country, but I only managed to find these two cases (Thunder Bay and Lillooet) where it was actual politicians (rather than just some “social media users”) who linked their demand for a return of VIa service - and they were all from the local rather than the provincial level of government...:

Pressure grows for Via Rail return to Thunder Bay, Ont.
”Former MP says "All fingers point to Ottawa" on Via Rail's return

Cuts to Greyhound services across Western Canada and northwestern Ontario have garnered attention and outcry online from those who rely on the service.

Social media users are also now calling for the return of Via Rail through Thunder Bay and through parts of Northwestern Ontario.

[...]

Bruce Hyer, a former MP for Thunder Bay- Superior North, has been a long time advocate for via rail to resume service in all of Northwestern Ontario . He said the return of via rail to the north shore needs to be a federal issue.

"All fingers point to Ottawa on this," said Hyer. "It's a big deal environmentally as well as the convenience and the need of the people in the community."

Hyer said there is a "desperate" need to restore via rail, especially between Toronto and Winnipeg.”

With Greyhound about to quit B.C., Lillooet calls for return of passenger train service
“The District of Lillooet has put forward a resolution calling on the province to work with Via Rail to carry out a feasibility study for passenger rail service between North Vancouver and Prince George that will be debated at next month's Union of B.C. Municipalities (UBCM) Convention.”

Note: I’ve updated the original post to better nuance my argument...

 

[roger1818]

Following a private Email exchange in response to above post, I would like to precise that “individual provinces” should rather have referred to certain local (and vocal!) activists and politicians across the country than the actual provincial governments (which tend to be quite as unsupportive of publicly funded intercity bus service as they are for publicly funded intercity rail service).

I did search for some news articles which highlight the reflex of calling for restored VIA service when a Greyhound was abandoning most of this country, but I only managed to find these two cases (Thunder Bay and Lillooet) where it was actual politicians (rather some “social media users”) who linked their demand for a return of VIa service - and they were all from the local rather than the provincial level of government...:

Pressure grows for Via Rail return to Thunder Bay, Ont.
”Former MP says "All fingers point to Ottawa" on Via Rail's return

Cuts to Greyhound services across Western Canada and northwestern Ontario have garnered attention and outcry online from those who rely on the service.

Social media users are also now calling for the return of Via Rail through Thunder Bay and through parts of Northwestern Ontario.”

With Greyhound about to quit B.C., Lillooet calls for return of passenger train service
“The District of Lillooet has put forward a resolution calling on the province to work with Via Rail to carry out a feasibility study for passenger rail service between North Vancouver and Prince George that will be debated at next month's Union of B.C. Municipalities (UBCM) Convention.”

Note: I’ve updated the original post to better nuance my argument...

And @micheal_can says you won't admit when you are wrong.

Regarding Thunder Bay, Ontario Northland has filled in the gap and now provides bus service from Sault Ste. Marie to Thunder Bay and from Thunder Bay to Winnipeg.

 

[ManyQuestions]

HFR would bring back service to Peterborough. Having said that, it really depends on which numbers you consider important. While the Subsidy per Passenger for Montreal-Quebec is significantly higher (a bad thing), the Ridership, Cost Recovery and Occupancy Rate are also higher (good things).

	Ridership​	Subsidy per passenger​	Cost recovery​	Occupancy Rate​
Montreal-Quebec	287,111​	$73.80​	28.4%​	39%​
Toronto-Havelock	59,067​	$32.10​	24.5%​	32%​

What the table doesn't tell you is that it is 272 km between Montreal-Quebec and 162km between Toronto and Havelock, so the Subsidies per Passenger km are $0.27 and $0.20 respectively. Still higher for Montreal-Quebec, but more reasonable and it does have better Ridership, Cost recovery and Occupancy Rate figures.

One other thing to consider is that the issue with the Montreal-Quebec service was, and still is, that it is extremely slow and unreliable. Travel by bus was a better experience with faster travel times and, in my experience, dramatically better reliability. Furthermore, the busses on this route are both much cheaper and more modern than the trains used by VIA.

I can't compare this with the former levels of service on the Havelock line, but I do think that it is worth noting that the most frequent pre-covid VIA travel time for Montreal-Quebec was 3:45, about 15% longer than the 3:15 travel time offered by the hourly service offered by Orléans Express before covid. I believe that one of the three daily VIA trips was scheduled to be about as fast as the bus, but left at 6:30, but I think It took about four hours given that I got to the office at 11:00 when I rode it two years ago. I'll check the old schedules and write something more about this soon, but it is my understanding that the low performance of the Montreal-Quebec route was one of the reasons for it being prioritized in the HFR project along with the former Ontario high speed rail plans. The train is normally my preferred mode of travel, but I have begun to avoid it on the Montreal-Quebec route.