VIA Rail

[kEiThZ]

You make a valid point, but I think it’s being expressed a bit mean-spiritedly. Those in remoter regions cannot expect transportation to have the form or convenience that is possible in more densely populated areas, I agree. But ”like it or move” is a bit arbitrary. As a very large country, we need to be very concerned about encouraging development in the hinterland (assuming, of course, that there are resource or other industries out there to make that investment sustainable).

To what end?

We're at the point where major infrastructure doesn't get built, because our system of government is sufficiently biased to rural and suburban voters to ensure perpetual mediocrity on anything to do with urban centres. Why don't we have High Speed Rail between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal? Exactly because it's those three cities that benefit and that drives the rest of the province and country up the wall.

Public transportation decisions aren't guided by fandom. To that end Urban Sky is right, if rail service is high on your priority list, move. Because chances are subsidizing rail services to that extent will never be politically supportable in Canada. Much as we wish we could be like Norway, we're not.

And with Covid turning budgets everywhere into Swiss Cheese, we'll be lucky to keep the services we have. The fiscal conservatives are already pushing for cuts everywhere.

 

[crs1026]

To what end?

We're at the point where major infrastructure doesn't get built, because our system of government is sufficiently biased to rural and suburban voters to ensure perpetual mediocrity on anything to do with urban centres. Why don't we have High Speed Rail between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal? Exactly because it's those three cities that benefit and that drives the rest of the province and country up the wall.

Public transportation decisions aren't guided by fandom. To that end Urban Sky is right, if rail service is high on your priority list, move. Because chances are subsidizing rail services to that extent will never be politically supportable in Canada. Much as we wish we could be like Norway, we're not.

And with Covid turning budgets everywhere into Swiss Cheese, we'll be lucky to keep the services we have. The fiscal conservatives are already pushing for cuts everywhere.

I was not suggesting overkill, but one has to ask what the "right" level of investment might be. Current population of Northern Ontario is just under 800,000 people. That's enough to command some political voice. They are not all located on one rail line, certainly, but the population of greater SSM, Sudbury, Timmins, North Bay plus smaller towns along those two routes is roughly 400,000. That's enough to justify good transportation. As a market base, that would certainly represent some meaningful demand and some meaningful ridership adding to whatever VIA builds as its Southern Ontario backbone.... more than Windsor-Chatham which is a little over 300,000. As incremental ridership changing at Toronto for other destinations served by VIA, it's not trivial.

I don't have a crystal ball, and I don't have a clue what will happen post-pandemic. Anyone who says they know for sure probably isn't worth listening to. One does hear about some losing interest in a crowded, dense urban lifestyle. Somebody (maybe not VIA) needs to consider whether places other than T-O-M might support ridership. There may be a rebound.... as there was after WW II. Linking that second tier of communities might reach a threshold of viability. I'm not saying that it will, I'm saying it's worth looking objectively at what the thresholds might be.

- Paul

 

[kEiThZ]

They are not all located on one rail line, certainly, but the population of greater SSM, Sudbury, Timmins, North Bay plus smaller towns along those two routes is roughly 400,000. That's enough to justify good transportation. As a market base, that would certainly represent some meaningful demand and some meaningful ridership adding to whatever VIA builds as its Southern Ontario backbone.... more than Windsor-Chatham which is a little over 300,000.

You're comparing 400k over 500+km to 300k over 83 km, of which 80% is in Windsor, across from a metro of 5 million.

You're right that they deserve better public transport. But the case for rail service is incredibly poor. The only case I can see is some kind of regular rail service to North Bay, maybe supporting a bus hub there.

 

[micheal_can]

You're comparing 400k over 500+km to 300k over 83 km, of which 80% is in Windsor, across from a metro of 5 million.

You're right that they deserve better public transport. But the case for rail service is incredibly poor. The only case I can see is some kind of regular rail service to North Bay, maybe supporting a bus hub there.

I am guessing you know nothing about North Bay and their station. There are a major terminal for buses from Quebec, Autobus Maheux, currently suspended due to covid. (Temiskaming, and Abitibi area.) Their station has much more traffic than the So, that bus hub you speak of? It is already there and up to covid, was doing well.

 

[kEiThZ]

I am guessing you know nothing about North Bay and their station. There are a major terminal for buses from Quebec, Autobus Maheux, currently suspended due to covid. (Temiskaming, and Abitibi area.) Their station has much more traffic than the So, that bus hub you speak of? It is already there and up to covid, was doing well.

Did you miss the part about regular rail service to North Bay feeding that bus hub? Yes, I know there's a lot of bus traffic there.

 

[kEiThZ]

A good example of the opposite extreme to our discussions here is Spain. They can't stop building HSR, even though their HSR network keeps racking up losses, only adding to the debts of a country in a poor fiscal situation. On one hand a cautionary tale about overbuilding. On the other an example of simply getting something built starts the ball rolling on political support for further rail investment everywhere.

 

[micheal_can]

Did you miss the part about regular rail service to North Bay feeding that bus hub? Yes, I know there's a lot of bus traffic there.

The way you worded it made it sound like there isn't much there.

 

[Urban Sky]

I was not suggesting overkill, but one has to ask what the "right" level of investment might be. Current population of Northern Ontario is just under 800,000 people. That's enough to command some political voice. They are not all located on one rail line, certainly, but the population of greater SSM, Sudbury, Timmins, North Bay plus smaller towns along those two routes is roughly 400,000. That's enough to justify good transportation. As a market base, that would certainly represent some meaningful demand and some meaningful ridership adding to whatever VIA builds as its Southern Ontario backbone.... more than Windsor-Chatham which is a little over 300,000. As incremental ridership changing at Toronto for other destinations served by VIA, it's not trivial.

I don't have a crystal ball, and I don't have a clue what will happen post-pandemic. Anyone who says they know for sure probably isn't worth listening to. One does hear about some losing interest in a crowded, dense urban lifestyle. Somebody (maybe not VIA) needs to consider whether places other than T-O-M might support ridership. There may be a rebound.... as there was after WW II. Linking that second tier of communities might reach a threshold of viability. I'm not saying that it will, I'm saying it's worth looking objectively at what the thresholds might be.

- Paul

You're comparing 400k over 500+km to 300k over 83 km, of which 80% is in Windsor, across from a metro of 5 million.

You're right that they deserve better public transport. But the case for rail service is incredibly poor. The only case I can see is some kind of regular rail service to North Bay, maybe supporting a bus hub there.

I like the idea of restoring the Northlander south of North Bay (i.e. as a daily rail service out of Toronto), but I second @crs1026's subtle nod that this would (and should) not be a VIA service, which is why I responded in the Ontario Northland and the End of the Northlander thread instead...

 

[kEiThZ]

To be clear, I'm not saying VIA has to run a specific route. Only that there might be a case for it.

 

[Urban Sky]

To be clear, I'm not saying VIA has to run a specific route. Only that there might be a case for it.

And I’m just saying that I’m getting seriously tired from this thread being constantly abused as a “general rail discussions” or “fantasy rail proposals” thread...

 

[Bordercollie]

Let me give you a real example.

Yesterday I drove to Kingston for business, and I usually take the 8:30 am train out of union and return on the 4:40 train out of kingston. The train takes about 2.5 hours one way. Plus the 30 minute subway ride to Union.

But due to the ticket cost and it was last minute so i decided to drive. I left at 7:30 (like i would if i caught the train). I got to Kingston around 10:30. I had to stop once to get gas and another time to send an urgent email. I could only get to a maximum speed of 105kmph due to the weather (Snow Squalls).

In retrospect it would have been more productive to take the train rather than drive since I would have been able to send emails without stopping and wasting time. If it wasn't for the high last minute ticket cost I would have taken the train. The train ticket would have been $190.00 but my gas was only $80.00.

So there are trade offs with both situations. If there had been an accident on the 401, it could have easily taken me another hour to get there making the train a better option. It comes down to ticket price.

 

[MisterF]

Let me give you a real example.

Yesterday I drove to Kingston for business, and I usually take the 8:30 am train out of union and return on the 4:40 train out of kingston. The train takes about 2.5 hours one way. Plus the 30 minute subway ride to Union.

But due to the ticket cost and it was last minute so i decided to drive. I left at 7:30 (like i would if i caught the train). I got to Kingston around 10:30. I had to stop once to get gas and another time to send an urgent email. I could only get to a maximum speed of 105kmph due to the weather (Snow Squalls).

In retrospect it would have been more productive to take the train rather than drive since I would have been able to send emails without stopping and wasting time. If it wasn't for the high last minute ticket cost I would have taken the train. The train ticket would have been $190.00 but my gas was only $80.00.

So there are trade offs with both situations. If there had been an accident on the 401, it could have easily taken me another hour to get there making the train a better option. It comes down to ticket price.

Keep in mind that the cost of driving is more than just the price of gas. Every kilometre driven has a bigger cost for maintenance and depreciation than people tend to think.

 

[roger1818]

Keep in mind that the cost of driving is more than just the price of gas. Every kilometre driven has a bigger cost for maintenance and depreciation than people tend to think.

Agreed! There is also the value of your time. Time spent driving is largely wasted, but time in the train can be productive.

 

[littlewill1166]

Let me give you a real example.

Yesterday I drove to Kingston for business, and I usually take the 8:30 am train out of union and return on the 4:40 train out of kingston. The train takes about 2.5 hours one way. Plus the 30 minute subway ride to Union.

But due to the ticket cost and it was last minute so i decided to drive. I left at 7:30 (like i would if i caught the train). I got to Kingston around 10:30. I had to stop once to get gas and another time to send an urgent email. I could only get to a maximum speed of 105kmph due to the weather (Snow Squalls).

In retrospect it would have been more productive to take the train rather than drive since I would have been able to send emails without stopping and wasting time. If it wasn't for the high last minute ticket cost I would have taken the train. The train ticket would have been $190.00 but my gas was only $80.00.

So there are trade offs with both situations. If there had been an accident on the 401, it could have easily taken me another hour to get there making the train a better option. It comes down to ticket price.

Megabus

 

[nfitz]

I like the idea of restoring the Northlander south of North Bay (i.e. as a daily rail service out of Toronto), but I second @crs1026's subtle nod that this would (and should) not be a VIA service ...

Though do we really need a third agency running trains? Why not have the provincial governments pay VIA to operate some services - like what Ontario Northland runs - leaving them to operate buses.

Could also be a model for various other service in Quebec and Ontario. Or elsewhere.