VIA Rail

[roger1818]

Not quite sure what makes you think that.

It came more from a previous twitter post linked here and the later was more of a confirmation:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1353787259233988612

The caption "The first Siemens Venture Cars" clearly isn't true as even Siemens says, "Siemens Mobility worked closely with Virgin Trains USA (formerly Brightline) during a rigorous design process that led to the Venture trainset. The first of five four-car trainsets from the initial order was delivered in December 2016." Now if it had said, "The first Siemens Venture Cars for Amtrak" then okay (though technically they aren't being bought by Amtrak) or just remove the word first all together, that would have been fine.

The delivery of the first series production cars to IDOT / Amtrak Midwest is news, which the post is sharing, while noting that the VIA interior design may differ. Twitter doesn't really allow enough characters for a complete history lesson.

Don't get me wrong, I do agree it is interesting news and worth sharing. I also get that Twitter makes it challenging to get the full message across. The thing about buying train cars is there is a lot of room for customization. While the shell remains largely the same, look and feel can be customized to meet the railway's needs. I am not sure that what VIA will be getting will be any closer to what Amtrak is getting as compared to what Brightline has.

Brightline's trains are based on the cars Siemens made for the OBB RailJet, and I've been those as a show-and-tell "This is what a modern train looks like, without tossing billions at greenfield HSR" since I first got involved in promoting High Performance Rail for SW Ontario almost a decade ago.

It is true that the Venture coaches are based on Siemens Viaggio Comfort coaches (which are used by ÖBB Railjet). It seems as though they were initially classified as a subset of the Viaggio brand, but when they saw there was a market for a North American variant beyond Brightline, Siemens decided to create the Venture brand for the North American variant.

The most obvious difference will be overhead bins, which personally I think Amtrak should adopt too given the similarities in accident risk. Unlike the Railjets, they probably wont be putting premium business class at the business end of the cab car, although I'm looking forward to seeing how those are designed to keep Transport Canada happy.

The issue of overhead bins seems to be a hot button topic on this forum and I am not going to touch it.

 

[Maverick7]

Certainly, VIA (and Amtrak) have been positioned by government and the pols with agendas other than ensuring and optimising their success. Can’t hold that against VIA.

I admire the folks at VIA for their ability to remain positive and keeping up forward momentum in the face of sustained apathy and outright opposition. There are lots of good things being done to be proud of.

One sees occasional bursts of internal Stockholm syndrome, but given a choice between being oppositional at the wrong moment and playing into political adversaries, versus toeing the party line and keeping thing moving forward, I can’t say I would do otherwise. Everyone has to defend and execute their boss’s dumbest ideas at times.

VIA is positioning well around its “hills to die on”.... eg justifying a new corridor fleet, creating a positive future for the ON-QC corridor, preparing for end-of-life for the long distance fleet.

To abuse a cliche - it’s a Cinderella story waiting to happen, but Princes are hard to find. All we can do is keep kissing frogs and hope one turns up.

- Paul

One of the biggest problems that must be overcome is that of perception, in that most Canadians firmly believe that passenger rail is an antiquated and no longer relevant form of transportation, which couldn't be further from the truth!

Passenger trains in North America are portrayed on TV and in movies as being old, dreadfully slow, unreliable and worn out, while cars are shown in commercials as plying carefree on the open road with absolutely no traffic whatsoever, when reality dictates otherwise in that congestion and travel times continue to increase year-to-year.

The other prevailing misconception regarding passenger rail is that only high speed rail should be considered for this country's needs and nothing else.

Most Canadians believe that only high speed rail should be envisaged for use in the Quebec City-Windsor corridor, for example, while totally dismissing modernized passenger rail in the form commonly referred to as either higher-speed or high-performance type rail, where regular intercity trains operate frequently at maximum speeds of 177 kph (110 mph) or more on dedicated tracks, thereby cutting travel times substantially, increasing convenience and reliability, while dramatically reducing both construction costs and end-user fares in comparison to high speed rail.

And here's the kicker! The vast majority of Europeans (about 90 percent) actually travel by regular intercity or regional trains, not high speed trains.

Therefore, the Federal Government's timely approval of Via Rail's HFR (high frequency rail) project would indeed provide two thirds of the benefits of HSR, at one third of the cost.

I, for one, would love to take an HFR train with a rock-solid travel time of 3 hours, 15 minutes between Toronto and Ottawa; or 2 hours and 10 minutes between Montreal and Quebec City! That's easily much faster than driving and could even sway air travelers towards passenger rail!

With these impressive travel times, one can only imagine how Via Rail's ridership would increase by leaps and bounds with an HFR system in place, considering that prior to this pandemic, Via Rail's ridership had seen a phenomenal increase of over 30 percent over the past five years, while still operating some equipment that is 70 years old.

In light of the financial constraints placed on Via Rail, including its inability to expand its business case due to having to operate mostly on freight-owned tracks, I certainly can't blame Via Rail for the almost hopeless situation it is presently facing.

Via Rail's HFR project can be constructed in a very short time frame and also provides the relevance

Certainly, VIA (and Amtrak) have been positioned by government and the pols with agendas other than ensuring and optimising their success. Can’t hold that against VIA.

I admire the folks at VIA for their ability to remain positive and keeping up forward momentum in the face of sustained apathy and outright opposition. There are lots of good things being done to be proud of.

One sees occasional bursts of internal Stockholm syndrome, but given a choice between being oppositional at the wrong moment and playing into political adversaries, versus toeing the party line and keeping thing moving forward, I can’t say I would do otherwise. Everyone has to defend and execute their boss’s dumbest ideas at times.

VIA is positioning well around its “hills to die on”.... eg justifying a new corridor fleet, creating a positive future for the ON-QC corridor, preparing for end-of-life for the long distance fleet.

To abuse a cliche - it’s a Cinderella story waiting to happen, but Princes are hard to find. All we can do is keep kissing frogs and hope one turns up.

- Paul

of substantially reduced carbon emissions in comparison to either driving or flying.

By continuing to delay this crucial HFR project, it will be extremely difficult for this country to reach its climate change emissions targets.

As such, our Federal Government must act now on HFR, rather than continuing to further an agenda of endless recurring studies, as evidenced in the past five years.

This government's ambiguity and indecision on HFR, may otherwise result in the eventual, complete disappearance altogether of our national passenger rail system.

In sharp contrast, other advanced countries are actually expanding their passenger rail infrastructure and services so as to provide a viable alternative to both driving and flying.

We'll just have to wait and see as to what will transpire on budget night as to whether Via Rail's HFR will again be sidelined for political reasons.

 

[NY99]

most Canadians firmly believe that passenger rail is an antiquated

wait what? since when?

I feel like this is one of those things rail advocates keep telling themselves so often that they’re sure it’s true... but there’s zero evidence to suggest it

Like I’m sure improving inter-city rail probably isn’t the highest thing on most people’s priority list, but polls have consistently shown high support for it.

Anecdotally, I’ve heard nothing but enthusiastic support for better rail from people who usually don’t give two shits about transportation issues.

the rest of your comment is great and I didn’t mean to dunk on u, I just see this take a lot, and I feel like it’s a big misread of public opinion.

 

[Urban Sky]

One of the biggest problems that must be overcome is that of perception, in that most Canadians firmly believe that passenger rail is an antiquated and no longer relevant form of transportation, which couldn't be further from the truth!

lmao what? since when?

I feel like this is one of those things rail advocates keep telling themselves so often that they’re sure it’s true... but there’s zero evidence to suggest it

Add the words “non-HSR intercity” into “passenger rail” and the statement becomes painfully accurate. Just let the fact that there are 7.2 Canadians for every trip made by VIA in a given year (5,007,753 passengers in 2019 spread across a population of 35.8 million in Canada) sink for a moment and you will realize how obscurely small that niche which VIA serves still is...

PS: For the US, that figure is even worse: 10.3 Americans for every trip made by Amtrak (32,017,686 passengers in FY 2019 spread across a population of 329.2 million)...

 

[Xav]

If CNR was still a crown corporation maybe things would be different today. No?

 

[NY99]

Add the words “non-HSR intercity” into “passenger rail” and the statement becomes painfully accurate. Just let the fact that there are 7.2 Canadians for every trip made by VIA in a given year (5,007,753 passengers in 2019 spread across a population of 35.8 million in Canada) sink for a moment and you will realize how obscurely small that niche which VIA serves still is...

PS: For the US, that figure is even worse: 10.3 Americans for every trip made by Amtrak (32,017,686 passengers in FY 2019 spread across a population of 329.2 million)...

Part of that is the fact that Canada is a huge, sparsely populated country. High-quality passenger rail is pretty much only economically viable in the Quebec City-Windsor region. If you live elsewhere, you’re likely never going to see anything above a minimal level of service.

Unless Canada’s population drastically increases, we’ll never truly see rail usage per capita reach those of European countries.

That doesn’t mean we can’t make that figure a lot better, though.

Idk why I’m writing so much, my only point is that governments just need to build the infrastructure and people will come. The current popular view of train travel isn’t what’s keeping people from using it.

 

[NY99]

If CNR was still a crown corporation maybe things would be different today. No?

From what I understand, freight rail has always been way more profitable than passenger rail, and has always been prioritized over it. So I doubt it.

 

[robmausser]

wait what? since when?

I feel like this is one of those things rail advocates keep telling themselves so often that they’re sure it’s true... but there’s zero evidence to suggest it

Like I’m sure improving inter-city rail probably isn’t the highest thing on most people’s priority list, but polls have consistently shown high support for it.

Anecdotally, I’ve heard nothing but enthusiastic support for better rail from people who usually don’t give two shits about transportation issues.

the rest of your comment is great and I didn’t mean to dunk on u, I just see this take a lot, and I feel like it’s a big misread of public opinion.

We must live in different social circles. I tell people im taking the train from Toronto to Montreal and they kinda laugh a bit and are like "ok, is everything OK financially? You don't need any help or anything right? We can front you some money for a flight if you really need it."

Taking the train is for poor people for many of the people I interact with on the daily.

 

[NY99]

We must live in different social circles. I tell people im taking the train from Toronto to Montreal and they kinda laugh a bit and are like "ok, is everything OK financially? You don't need any help or anything right? We can front you some money for a flight if you really need it."

Taking the train is for poor people for many of the people I interact with on the daily.

because VIA is pretty f*cking bad right now... your friends’ reactions are to a large extent appropriate. Ask those same friends how they’d feel about HFR. That’s my point.

Unless you have a really odd group of friends, I’m guessing they wouldn’t bat an eye if you took GO to go somewhere in the GTHA. Because, as imperfect as it is, that service is good enough for many, many people to get from point A to point B. And it has a damn good reputation to show for it.

Canadians don’t view train travel as bad. They view bad train travel as bad, as they rightly should. But that doesn’t mean they don’t want it to get better.

 

[DSC]

We must live in different social circles. I tell people im taking the train from Toronto to Montreal and they kinda laugh a bit and are like "ok, is everything OK financially? You don't need any help or anything right? We can front you some money for a flight if you really need it."

Taking the train is for poor people for many of the people I interact with on the daily.

That is really not true in 'my circles'. Trains (Toronto to Montreal or Ottawa and maybe Windsor) are taken by people who have cars but don;t want to drive and want more comfort and less ''fuss" than flying.. Most people I know are not keen on airports (or planes) unless distance is too great - e,g. Winnipeg.

 

[trebello]

Unless Canada’s population drastically increases, we’ll never truly see rail usage per capita reach those of European countries.

While I agree we likely won't see European levels of rail usage, this is similar to the "Canada is big and therefore we can't expect rail to play a major role in transportation" argument. With most of the country's population concentrated in a few relatively dense (and rapidly growing) areas, there is a lot of opportunity for growth in inter-city rail mode share, with expected population growth in the next 10 - 20 years alone. There are 20 - 23 million people combined in the Quebec City - Windsor Corridor, BC's Lower Mainland, and the Calgary Edmonton corridor, which is well over half of Canada's population. Rail won't be competitive between these regions, but it certainly can be within them (and there are a lot more trips within regions that between them). HFR is a great way to start to demonstrate this. As cities run into their urban growth boundaries and continue to densify, the case for rail only grows.

 

[Urban Sky]

Are you serious? Are you that limited in your understanding of passenger rail that you have the audacity of making such a blanket statement?

[...]

Your sadly misguided words ...

[...]

So much for a fresh exchange of opinions and ideas with an open and informed mind!

Take a chill pill, you are preaching to the converted and to people who have been commenting in this thread for more years than you have spent days in this forum and therefore are very aware that none of the accusations you are firing at this fellow commenter is in any way justified! Honestly, if you had just read what he actually wrote rather than directly jumping to conclusions, you would realize how inappropriate your remarks were. I would strongly suggest that you find a more measured tone before you continue your participation in this forum...

 

[robmausser]

I've travelled to five continents, been on a least twelve cruises, visited Canada from coast-to-coast, most of the U.S., been to Mexico at least 3 times, Central America, South America, Northern Africa, most of Europe, including Russia and several more countries than I care to mention, and you dare to suggest that I'm poor because I prefer taking a modern train!

Are you serious? Are you that limited in your understanding of passenger rail that you have the audacity of making such a blanket statement?

You want proof as to how wonderful and effective regular intercity passenger rail can be when properly funded and constructed! I ask that you click on the following YouTube website and you'll see just how fast 180 kph (111 mph) actually is; it is virtually identical to Via Rail's HFR maximum speeds of 177 kph (110 mph); and I'll just continue to sit back in my comfortable seat on the train while having a drink and a meal, enjoying WiFi, the scenery and going way faster than driving while you remain increasingly stuck in gridlocked traffic, as I've observed for almost 20 years while residing in the GTA:

You obviously haven't travelled by train throughout Germany, for instance, where over 2 billion passengers take the train annually because it's way faster than driving, significantly roomier, more comfortable and comparable in travel time to, and leaps and bounds more environmentally-friendly than flying!

Haven't you also heard of the Shinkansen bullet train in Japan, to name just a few of the high-speed rail systems in use throughout the world?

It is we, in North America, that are completely out of step with the obvious limitations of our own transportation system!

If we had any clue as to how easy it is to get around in Europe, for instance, we wouldn't shake our heads in disbelief while we're frequently stuck in traffic for hours on a daily basis.

It's called focusing on a better 'quality of life' rather than the misguided notion that people who choose to take a train do so because they simply cannot afford to buy a car. That's absurd and an obvious example of how ill informed we are in this country!

In your travels, I ask that you just sit inside Frankfurt's main railway station in Germany, for instance, where an average of 450,000 travellers go through this facility on a daily basis; take the time to observe the type of travellers who actually use trains and you'll be shocked to learn that well-dressed businessmen and women, including the wealthy, and a well-rounded segment of society, take the train in order to get around quickly, effectively and efficiently!

Your sadly misguided words just prove the points that I've been making for years, thereby reinforcing the need to educate Canadians as to how backwards we have become on modern, intercity passenger rail and of the crucial need to deviate from the status quo on transportation, that of embracing auto and air travel whatever the cost to our environment, in order to also meet our carbon emissions targets ASAP!

Just ask a typical resident living in Northern Europe and you'll quickly get a sense as to how precariously fragile that particular area has become due to the magnified, destructive effects of climate change.

Europeans are taking climate change seriously, as opposed to climate change denial that is so prevalent on this side of the continent through our lack of action on the reduction of carbon emissions!

Europe's outstanding passenger rail systems allow communities to easily connect and interact with each another, creating a level of mobility that can only be dreamt of in this country.

It's also the reason why their small towns and cities remain prosperous in comparison to this country since young people aren't migrating to large cities in droves in order to find gainful employment and opportunity.

Unfortunately, even our own politicians fail to grasp the significance and importance of having a modernized passenger rail system in place in order to provide an additional, effective, and environmentally-friendly travel choice to Canadians.

I found that out after writing several detailed emails to some of our Federal Ministers requesting clarification as to the cause of incessant delays in approving the HFR project; I still haven't been able to obtain a firm timeline for the go-ahead of this vital project, which was proposed five years ago!

Choosing to travel by modernized passenger rail has absolutely nothing to do with a person's wealth, as evidenced in the vast majority of advanced countries throughout the world!

In fact, Europeans purchase a huge amount of new vehicles every year, so they certainly cannot possibly be branded as being poor, just because they choose to travel by train considerably more so than Americans or Canadians.

The EU's annual car sales figures are actually quite similar to those of the North American market as per the following website:

Global car sales by key markets, 2005-2020 – Charts – Data & Statistics - IEA

Global car sales by key markets, 2005-2020 - Chart and data by the International Energy Agency.

www.iea.org

So much for a fresh exchange of opinions and ideas with an open and informed mind! I'll leave it at that for now!

Hey man, I appreciate all the text, but you misunderstood my post. My social circle says this to ME, that the train (at least in North America) is for poor people. I dont share these beliefs. I take the train everywhere I go, including Canada, Europe and the USA.

 

[robmausser]

Take a chill pill, you are preaching to the converted and to people who have been commenting in this thread for more years than you have spent days in this forum and therefore are very aware that none of the accusations you are firing at this fellow commenter is in any way justified! Honestly, if you had just read what he actually wrote rather than directly jumping to conclusions, you would realize how inappropriate your remarks were. I would strongly suggest that you clean up your post and find a more measured tone before one of the moderators reads your post...

Thanks for having my back! I was like, hey...I take the VIA to Montreal almost every time I visit....what did I do wrong?

 

[Urban Sky]

Thanks for having my back! I was like, hey...I take the VIA to Montreal almost every time I visit....what did I do wrong?

I would have to guess, maybe that you have the “wrong” friends and people around you...?