VIA Rail

[roger1818]

I've mentioned Ottawa twice, BTW.

Though you didn't mention its population.

Anyway, had it not been for the O-train in Ottawa, one could have imagined an HFR corridor running beside the Kingston Sub and on a rebuilt B&PR alignment from Prescott to Ottawa. That way the losses in terms of catchment area would have been minor and the whole service could have been put on the new alignment.

And how would a route that is even longer than the current one via Brockville be an improvement?

I am very curious to see what they will solve the conflicts in Montréal, now that the Mount Royale Tunnel is (and will be) technically out of use due to the REM.

That tunnel issue only affects trains east of Montreal running along the north shore, but I think a lot of people hear are curious to see what VIA's plans are in that regard.

 

[robmausser]

I've mentioned Ottawa twice, BTW.

Anyway, had it not been for the O-train in Ottawa, one could have imagined an HFR corridor running beside the Kingston Sub and on a rebuilt B&PR alignment from Prescott to Ottawa. That way the losses in terms of catchment area would have been minor and the whole service could have been put on the new alignment.

I am very curious to see what they will solve the conflicts in Montréal, now that the Mount Royale Tunnel is (and will be) technically out of use due to the REM.

The only solution I see for Montreal, other than just having two separate services and having to use the REM to get between them, which imo would be WAY less than ideal, is to route around the mountain through the CN yard, and onto the Mascouche Line, which then connects to the Quebec railroad in Mascouche.

It would add about 15 minutes to the trip unfortunately, but that's really a better trade off than making everyone de-train and take a metro to another station with their luggage.

 

[ec_traindriver]

And how would a route that is even longer than the current one via Brockville be an improvement?

Longer? It seems to be a lot shorter to me, considering that Prescott to Ottawa, via Kemptville, is basically a straight line, while to get to Ottawa via the Brockville and Smiths Falls Subs the train geographically turns west...

 

[micheal_can]

Well, if the main preoccupation is to connect Toronto to Ottawa and Montréal only, HFR is great. You should go for it! But VIA, or anyone for that matter, shouldn't sell it as a measure to solve mobility on the Corridor. It's just a cheap HSR, you've proved my point.

Most people seem to either want to get rid of any service unless it only serves existing service, but only the profitable ones. In other words, the Lakeshore route., in their eyes needs to get shut down. The fact that Kingston is one of the top stations for ridership is irrelevant to them.

Peterborough (121 721) and Trois-Rivières aside (156 042), the new line runs in the middle of nowhere, and I don't see any good reason why they should be preferred to Drummondville (96 118), Kingston (161 175), Belleville (103 472), Trenton/Quinte West (43 577), Cobourg/Northumberland County (85 598), and Bowmanville/Clarington (92 013).

But if the HFR really proves successful, and the majority of trains get diverted on the new line, leaving barely one or two trains/day on the Kingston Sub, then the Corridor will have a negative balance in terms of potential ridership. Leaving the big three aside, the catchment area diminishes by more than 300 000 units.

But again, if the objective is to connect Toronto to Ottawa and Montréal only, I rest my case!

There is no reasons that most of the existing trains couldn't stay on the Lakeshore line. They would collect everyone from the smaller cities and bring them to where they need to go too. The sad reality is that the service will get cut as a "cost cutting measure".

You forgot Ottawa-Gatineau (1 323 783) in your list of intermediary cities that HFR supports. Yes it does have service today, but it is on a separate alignment, requiring duplication of service. One of the big benefits of HFR is Frequency (the middle F) and having a single train that serves Montreal-Ottawa, Montreal-Toronto and Ottawa-Toronto will allow what are currently 3 different routes to piggyback off of each other.

The other cities you mentioned will still have service. In fact, in most cases it will be improved from today since it will operative as a reginal (a.k.a. stopping) train that is optimized for them rather than an occasional stop on a intercity train and thus an afterthought.

Do you have proof of this?

 

[roger1818]

The only solution I see for Montreal, other than just having two separate services and having to use the REM to get between them, which imo would be WAY less than ideal, is to route around the mountain through the CN yard, and onto the Mascouche Line, which then connects to the Quebec railroad in Mascouche.

It would add about 15 minutes to the trip unfortunately, but that's really a better trade off than making everyone de-train and take a metro to another station with their luggage.
View attachment 290457

Except I beleive you are showing the wrong approach into Montreal. Every HFR map I have seen shows a station in Laval, so I expect they will use the QGR track all the way to CP's Parc Sub, using the route shown in red on my map below. The issue then becomes how to get from there to Central Station. There used to be a track connecting CP's Parc and CN's St. Laurent Subdivisions (where it says Chabanel), but it was torn up and there is a Home Depot there now. More likely they would continue on the Parc Sub, to the Adirondack Sub and then build a new connection from that to CN's Montreal Sub, though that isn't particularly easy either. Another option is to use existing track to Gare Lucien-L'Allier, but that obviously has its own issues as well.

 

[robmausser]

Except I beleive you are showing the wrong approach into Montreal. Every HFR map I have seen shows a station in Laval, so I expect they will use the QGR track all the way to CP's Parc Sub, using the route shown in red on my map below. The issue then becomes how to get from there to Central Station. There used to be a track connecting CP's Parc and CN's St. Laurent Subdivisions (where it says Chabanel), but it was torn up and there is a Home Depot there now. More likely they would continue on the Parc Sub, to the Adirondack Sub and then build a new connection from that to CN's Montreal Sub, though that isn't particularly easy either. Another option is to use existing track to Gare Lucien-L'Allier, but that obviously has its own issues as well.

View attachment 290462

yeah I realize that but the plans are subject to change. I dont believe they will come into Toronto on the old CP Don Branch for example.

There is already a connection to the QGR with the new Mascouche line, I really believe they will decide to use this instead.

 

[roger1818]

Most people seem to either want to get rid of any service unless it only serves existing service, but only the profitable ones. In other words, the Lakeshore route., in their eyes needs to get shut down. The fact that Kingston is one of the top stations for ridership is irrelevant to them.

More proof that you are the king of strawman arguments.

Do you have proof of this?

From VIA's website (note that the Lakeshore route is part of the proposed network):

 

[roger1818]

yeah I realize that but the plans are subject to change. I dont believe they will come into Toronto on the old CP Don Branch for example.

There is already a connection to the QGR with the new Mascouche line, I really believe they will decide to use this instead.

That would mean getting onto shared tracks sooner, but you may be correct.

 

[kEiThZ]

Well, if the main preoccupation is to connect Toronto to Ottawa and Montréal only, HFR is great. You should go for it! But VIA, or anyone for that matter, shouldn't sell it as a measure to solve mobility on the Corridor.

When has anybody ever said that HFR would "solve mobility on the Corridor". This is, again, a strawman.

It's just a cheap HSR, you've proved my point.

It's not HSR. Has never been pitched as such. And specifically chose a model that would rule out scope creep towards HSR (the cost of which killed previous plans).

HFR does allow a path to a future "cheap HSR" if there's interest in future investment. It's a shorter path than the Lakeshore route. It's a corridor that connects major cities, yet doesn't run through expensive populated areas. And it should habitualize intercity train travel a bit more, helping build the social, political and economic case. But we're easily over a decade out from a push for HSR. Would need to complete HFR from Quebec City to Windsor before that can be seriously discussed.

 

[kEiThZ]

Peterborough (121 721) and Trois-Rivières aside (156 042), the new line runs in the middle of nowhere,

That's a feature. Not a bug. Running through the middle of nowhere connecting the first, second and sixth largest metros in the country is great. Makes it easier to build and cheaper to improve in the future.

and I don't see any good reason why they should be preferred to Drummondville (96 118), Kingston (161 175), Belleville (103 472), Trenton/Quinte West (43 577), Cobourg/Northumberland County (85 598), and Bowmanville/Clarington (92 013).

But if the HFR really proves successful, and the majority of trains get diverted on the new line, leaving barely one or two trains/day on the Kingston Sub, then the Corridor will have a negative balance in terms of potential ridership. Leaving the big three aside, the catchment area diminishes by more than 300 000 units.

You must have missed the part of the HFR proposal that includes a new hub in Kingston and train service better tailored to those Lakeshore communities. They most certainly aren't going down to 1-2 trains a day.

But again, if the objective is to connect Toronto to Ottawa and Montréal only, I rest my case!

How dare they prioritize connecting the first largest, second largest and sixth largest metros in the country with a combined catchment population of at least 6 million (conservative estimate) or 15% of the country's population, and the country's financial and political centres.

Yes the goal of HFR is to improve connectivity between those centres because VIA has done a sub-par job of this to date. It's why so many people drive and fly between these cities. For a guy who loves to talk about Europe and Asia, you seem clueless to the value of connecting large metros.

 

[roger1818]

Longer? It seems to be a lot shorter to me, considering that Prescott to Ottawa, via Kemptville, is basically a straight line, while to get to Ottawa via the Brockville and Smiths Falls Subs the train geographically turns west...

View attachment 290458

You might be right on that one (a quick line drawing showed the route via Prescot to Brockville (and on to Toronto) is 7 km shorter than the current route, but I would need to do more accurate measurements to be sure). Seems like a lot of new track to build to save a very small distance when VIA already owns all the track between Ottawa and Brockville.

 

[Urban Sky]

More proof that you are the king of strawman arguments.



From VIA's website (note that the Lakeshore route is part of the proposed network):

View attachment 290463

Big shout-out to @roger1818! The discussions here would be much more focussed and less ever-circling around the same long-debunked bullshit claims if more posters would soundly reject these constant attempts to derail all existing discussions so that this commenter can dictate what topics we discuss and which ones we don’t...

You must have missed the part of the HFR proposal that includes a new hub in Kingston and train service better tailored to those Lakeshore communities.

To be fair: he is new to the discussion here, whereas a certain other commenter in the discussion here has so far resisted dozens of attempts to make him acknowledge the existence of the evidence which is there...

 

[roger1818]

You might be right on that one (a quick line drawing showed the route via Prescot to Brockville (and on to Toronto) is 7 km shorter than the current route, but I would need to do more accurate measurements to be sure). Seems like a lot of new track to build to save a very small distance when VIA already owns all the track between Ottawa and Brockville.

By comparison, the current Ottawa-Toronto route is 446 km. I estimate HFR to be 404 km. That is a savings of about 42 km or 9.5% of the total distance. That is a much more significant savings.

 

[kEiThZ]

There is no reasons that most of the existing trains couldn't stay on the Lakeshore line.

Let's just ignore cost, technical feasibility (with regulations on track sharing, curve radii, grade separations, etc), and the willingness of freight cos to cooperate in substantial modification of their corridors. Other than that....

You also seem to ignoring that there will be plenty of trains left on Lakeshore. They'll just be originating in Kingston.

Do you have proof of this?

Other than VIA's own maps, how about the words of Kingston's mayor after his negotiations with VIA on a regional hub:

VIA Rail upgrades Kingston service: the making of a regional hub – Mayor Bryan Paterson

 

[kEiThZ]

To be fair: he is new to the discussion here

The periodic new posters who endlessly jump to, "why can't the federal government simply nationalize the railways to make my trip between Toronto and Montreal easier" is getting annoying as hell. Used to just be Canadians. But now we've seem to have attracted foreigners who seem to be equally clueless to the history of this country and the context in which our existing railways were built and operate.

I imagine if I told a European they were morons for moving so much freight be road and that they should just nationalize their railroads to make it easier to move freight, they'd think I was nuts.