VIA Rail

[ssiguy2]

But shouldn't the train provide a superior and faster service considering it has it's own route and gets government subsidies?

Trains are designed to reach much higher speeds than cars on a road so let them make use of it.

 

[nfitz]

But shouldn't the train provide a superior and faster service considering it has it's own route and gets government subsidies?

Trains are designed to reach much higher speeds than cars on a road so let them make use of it.

Looking at the timetable, the train is consistently about 2 hours 10 minutes. The bus trip is 193 km. At the the speed limit, the bus is going to take a minimum of 2-hours if it goes express non-stop. Looking at the bus schedule, the shortest trip is 2 hours 5 minutes - if there's no traffic.

Given the horror stories I hear some days of people driving downtown from Mississauga or Hamilton, I'd take the train.

 

[mdrejhon]

Looking at the timetable, the train is consistently about 2 hours 10 minutes.

The trains are rather infrequent, alas. So factor in the waiting time.

I definitely prefer the train though -- but the timetable in this corridor leaves a lot to be desired.

Also, London-Kitchener-Toronto improvements is completely within Ontario, and politically easier via Metrolinx than via VIA. Heck, Ontario (Metrolinx) now owns half that corridor already! Whereas, increases in VIA services need to be Canada-wide, so Ontario will only get incremental improvements from VIA. Look at the fast expansion GO is doing, plus the HSR study being started. For the next 25 years, my bet is on Metrolinx to provide train service that beats the speed of VIA service, within 20 years -- e.g. GO RER electricification will provide express trains to Kitchener that beat the speed of VIA diesel trains -- and Ontario-funded HSR automatically becomes de-facto Metrolinx HSR ...cue a new brand such as "GOFast Express", and a (lawsuit or sponsorship) from that beverage company

 

[nfitz]

The trains are rather infrequent, alas. So factor in the waiting time.

I've never heard of anyone factoring in waiting time for intercity transit.

The plan to Paris only goes once a day. Does that turn a 7-hour flight into a 33-hour flight?

I'd hardly call the bus to London frequent! If you ignore the 4-5 hour milk runs there's about a bus every 2 hours. So you aren't exactly going to show up at the bus station without aiming for a particular departure time!

 

[reaperexpress]

But shouldn't the train provide a superior and faster service considering it has it's own route and gets government subsidies?

Trains are designed to reach much higher speeds than cars on a road so let them make use of it.

Buses are subsidized too, in that government pays the entire cost of building and maintaining roads which make it possible for buses to travel at their top speed (110 km/h) for the entire trip between cities.

This is why I've been wondering about us creating a purely operational division of Metrolinx for the operation of intercity trains. With a separate budget from Metrolinx's capital division, we would have a much better picture of how intercity rail travel stacks up subsidy-wise to private bus services. The operating cost per passenger drops much more significantly with increased volumes for trains than it does for buses, so I'm guessing that after a few years of subsidy to build ridership we'd be able to operate a self-sustaining service that outcompetes private bus service in every respect. Of course, this all depends public investment in infrastructure that allows the trains to operate quickly, attracting more ridership and lowering operational costs.

Also, London-Kitchener-Toronto improvements is completely within Ontario, and politically easier via Metrolinx than via VIA. Heck, Ontario (Metrolinx) now owns half that corridor already! Whereas, increases in VIA services need to be Canada-wide, so Ontario will only get incremental improvements from VIA. Look at the fast expansion GO is doing, plus the HSR study being started. For the next 25 years, my bet is on Metrolinx to provide train service that beats the speed of VIA service, within 20 years -- e.g. GO RER electricification will provide express trains to Kitchener that beat the speed of VIA diesel trains -- and Ontario-funded HSR automatically becomes de-facto Metrolinx HSR ...cue a new brand such as "GOFast Express", and a (lawsuit or sponsorship) from that beverage company

A compromise option would be to create a new division of Metrolinx called VIA Rail Ontario, which would solely operate intercity passenger trains in Ontario under a shared branding and fare system with VIA Rail Canada. It would be similar in practice to Amtrak California.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

A compromise option would be to create a new division of Metrolinx called VIA Rail Ontario, which would solely operate intercity passenger trains in Ontario under a shared branding and fare system with VIA Rail Canada. It would be similar in practice to Amtrak California.

Only thing is I doubt Metrolinx will ever do anything that may confuse the rider as to exact who deserves to be getting the credit for service improvements. At least so long as the governments in power are not of the same party.

 

[mdrejhon]

I'd hardly call the bus to London frequent! If you ignore the 4-5 hour milk runs there's about a bus every 2 hours. So you aren't exactly going to show up at the bus station without aiming for a particular departure time!

I can finally do that on Lakeshore West line. I just show up without knowing when the train is arriving, because GOTrains are passing by there every 15-20 minutes during morning peak and every 30 minutes offpeak. GO Lakeshore like catching an infrequent subway. No need for timetables. Sometimes I coincidentally park 30 seconds before the train departs, and I tap+hop onto the GOtrain 1 second before the sliding doors automatically closes! Just like a subway! Lakeshore West finally feels almost like a surface subway that goes all the way between Hamilton/Oshawa, and it will become moreso with 15-minute GO RER.

Missing a VIA train will ruin your day.
Missing a Lakeshore GOTrain won't ruin your day.

My point, hereby, is proven.

Bring on GO RER and 15-minute offpeak, turning the whole GO network into a surface subway in 10 years. No timetable needed.
Bring on half-hourly HSR service, Metrolinx!

Is VIA going to bring subway-style commuter service to the Kitchener corridor? I thought not. It's Ontario HSR; let Metrolinx bring us commuter-friendly HSR timetables where you just show up, speedily pay fare, and hop onto the next HSR, just like you can in Japan & Europe. Many people over there now use HSR like subways there on the frequent-service routes, you know. Let the rabbit Metrolinx start HSR -- Ontario is already paying for the study and Metrolinx owns half the starter HSR corridor which they plan to electricify for GO RER! Let VIA & Metrolinx work it out once it's time for HSR to extend to Quebec.

I love the VIA Canadian train as much as the next train lover, and I have over 10,500 VIA Preference points (sleeper to Vancouver, baby!) but realistically --
-- it's quite obvious -- and seeing the tree in the forest. VIA definitely isn't starting-up Ontario HSR. Ontario is laying the groundwork. Even if the next government is Liberals, Ontario is barrelling forward with so much pre-requisites (study, ownership, electricification, etc) that they're just going to help Ontario get HSR started (while separately helping, say, Edmonton-Calgary get HSR started). Heck, both VIA and Metrolinx can run separate HSR trains like in Europe (e.g. Eurostar versus TGV) running over overlapped sections of the same HSR corridor. Metrolinx for commuter HSR, and VIA for interprovincial HSR. I'd even bet my mortgage on some kind of a provincial-federal separation ultimately happening.

Metrolinx is the rabbit here. VIA is the tortise here. Example Dec 17th -- http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra...tml?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed
This time, the tortise won't win.

 

[dowlingm]

The Americans have managed to make great strides in federal-state intercity cooperation in the last decade, even in North Carolina and Missouri (albeit under threat of service withdrawal under PRIIA). Even the Heartland Flyer (Amtrak+OK/TX) abides. That Ontario and Canada cannot cooperate in further enhancements to shared corridors is ridiculous and any politician who seeks to impede same should be so regarded. It is so annoying to see VIA now trumpet being able to cross sell tickets to Chinese airlines when a few short years ago you still couldn't get a Northlander ticket or connection on ReserVIA.

 

[ssiguy2]

Looking at the timetable, the train is consistently about 2 hours 10 minutes. The bus trip is 193 km. At the the speed limit, the bus is going to take a minimum of 2-hours if it goes express non-stop. Looking at the bus schedule, the shortest trip is 2 hours 5 minutes - if there's no traffic.

Given the horror stories I hear some days of people driving downtown from Mississauga or Hamilton, I'd take the train.

I'd rather take the train as well. I miss train travel and there is no train service to speak of west of Windsor. When you get out of the Corridor, train travel is strictly a tourist event. No one in their right mind would every consider it for an effective transportation option. If VIA decided to cancel all train service in Western Canada and didn't tell anybody, it would probably take a month before the newspapers even noticed it and only due to the tourists.

Buses make sense for smaller rides and connecting smaller communities but when you can't even get an express train from the busiest train station in the country to the 4th busiest train station in the country that is only 200 km away, they have the wrong priorities on what services they should be providing.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

I agree that Via should focus on the major cities corridor of Windsor to Quebec, rather than tourist routes.

Umm VIA dosent really have any routes that are simply "tourist focused", they all have the goal of moving people for people reasons, and leisure is a side note.

An example is "The Canadian" (Toronto - Vancouver), which is North America's only continuous transcontinental rail service. Sure, doing the whole route does not make sense to simply get from point Toronto to Vancouver, as the trip is too long. One would only do that for a vacation, which VIA does place an emphasis on while marketing the service. In reality, a service like the Canadian serves many people who stay on the train for a handful of hours, specifically in rural or remote regions of the country, who use it as a transit service. For example, I went on a canoe trip where we took the Canadian. We loaded at Washago, spent 22 hours on the train, and got off at a whistle stop at Savant Lake, which is very inaccessible by car. On the train, we met many people (most of the people, actually), who were getting to a job, visiting family in another town ect, and only staying on the train for a short stint of the cross-country journey.

Essentially, what most people don't realize is the VIA service isn't here because VIA wants people to enjoy the view. Its here because a demand exists to move people for practical reasons, and tourism is a way to get extra revenue and fill more train cars, and is a remnant of a bygone era when people took vacations on legendary services like CP Rail's Canadian and CN's Super Continental, during the golden age of railroading.

 

[ShonTron]

Amtrak has several transcontinental routes, though their easterly termini are either in Chicago or New Orleans (though for a while, the Sunset Limited ran all the way from Los Angeles to Jacksonville, Florida, linking both oceans). The Southwest Chief, California Zephyr, and The Empire Builder are daily trains and well used; the Empire Builder in particular is vital to smaller communities along its route. Apart from providing remote services in Northern Ontario, there's not a lot of non-tourist use of the Canadian anymore. The Mulroney cuts in 1990 destroyed the shorter (and more scenic) CP route, and reduced the service from daily to 3/week. Harper's cuts brought it to 2/week during the tourist off-season.

I've been on the Canadian all the way from Toronto to Vancouver (though not all in one trip) and the Empire Builder all the way from Portland to Chicago; Amtrak does a better job of serving local travel needs than VIA does on its long-distance trains.

Interestingly, VIA did run trains catering to tourists; it had the "Rockies by Daylight" train, which later became known as the Rocky Mountaineer; it was sold to a private operator after the 1990 cuts. It also operated a seasonal train between Halifax and Sydney called "The Bras D'Or" that did not serve communities in between.

 

[AlbertHWagstaff]

Interestingly, VIA did run trains catering to tourists; it had the "Rockies by Daylight" train, which later became known as the Rocky Mountaineer; it was sold to a private operator after the 1990 cuts.

And I believe the purchaser was an associate or "old chum" of the Prime Minister, and the whole thing has turned out quite well for him. It could have been money-maker for VIA.

 

[Jonny5]

Looking at the timetable, the train is consistently about 2 hours 10 minutes. The bus trip is 193 km. At the the speed limit, the bus is going to take a minimum of 2-hours if it goes express non-stop. Looking at the bus schedule, the shortest trip is 2 hours 5 minutes - if there's no traffic.

Given the horror stories I hear some days of people driving downtown from Mississauga or Hamilton, I'd take the train.

I know it's not a similar distance trip to what is discussed, but as a comparison, GO buses from Hamilton to Toronto are hands-down much faster out side of rush-hour than the all-stop train (even if those trains went to Hamilton and didn't end at Aldershot). I've had one bus do it in 45 minutes before. I'm sure he was going 120 for most of the trip.

In rush hour they are slower, though still predictable in trip times, and not too much longer. The 6:32 train from Hamilton (express after Oakville) arrives at Union at 7:45, while the bus that departs at 6:35 arrives at 8:10, 25 minutes longer. However the bus makes local stops on the way out of Hamilton, the last scheduled at 6:42, which could flip someone's total travel time to favour the bus if they live by that last stop at King & Dundurn. Those travel times have traffic baked in; they are rarely longer, and often shorter. The "QEW Express" generally does not travel on any part of the QEW at rush hour now, instead using the 407/403/427/Gardiner.

Convenience and comfort are, of course, subjective. There's no quiet zone on the bus, and it's difficult to change seats once it gets going, so you could be stuck next to a screaming baby, a moron yelling in his phone like he still has service from 1994, or a slob eating disgusting smelling food. There's also no washroom. Though generally the people who use those morning buses are pro-commuters and know how to behave civilly.

They have bumped up the frequency of the express over the years, now at every 15 minutes in the morning while the trains are running, so obviously people are using it.

 

[reaperexpress]

I know it's not a similar distance trip to what is discussed, but as a comparison, GO buses from Hamilton to Toronto are hands-down much faster out side of rush-hour than the all-stop train (even if those trains went to Hamilton and didn't end at Aldershot). I've had one bus do it in 45 minutes before. I'm sure he was going 120 for most of the trip.

In rush hour they are slower, though still predictable in trip times, and not too much longer. The 6:32 train from Hamilton (express after Oakville) arrives at Union at 7:45, while the bus that departs at 6:35 arrives at 8:10, 25 minutes longer. However the bus makes local stops on the way out of Hamilton, the last scheduled at 6:42, which could flip someone's total travel time to favour the bus if they live by that last stop at King & Dundurn. Those travel times have traffic baked in; they are rarely longer, and often shorter. The "QEW Express" generally does not travel on any part of the QEW at rush hour now, instead using the 407/403/427/Gardiner.

Convenience and comfort are, of course, subjective. There's no quiet zone on the bus, and it's difficult to change seats once it gets going, so you could be stuck next to a screaming baby, a moron yelling in his phone like he still has service from 1994, or a slob eating disgusting smelling food. There's also no washroom. Though generally the people who use those morning buses are pro-commuters and know how to behave civilly.

They have bumped up the frequency of the express over the years, now at every 15 minutes in the morning while the trains are running, so obviously people are using it.

Buses in Ontario are electronically limited to 110 km/h. In contrast, the Lakeshore West line has a speed limit of 95 mph (153 km/h), though the MP40s can only get up to 150 km/h.

Obviously a non-stop express bus is faster than a train that makes ten intermediate stops. That just means that service to Hamilton needs to operate with limited stops if it intends to capture the Hamilton-Toronto demand rather than just the demand between cities in the middle. Given that the LSW Niagara Service covers Union-Burlington in 40 minutes making four intermediate stops, and VIA covers Union-Aldershot in 35 minutes making two intermediate stops, it is easily possible to operate trains with travel times on par with GO route 16. The main question is with respect to peak-hour track capacity.

 

[robmausser]

Buses in Ontario are electronically limited to 110 km/h. In contrast, the Lakeshore West line has a speed limit of 95 mph (153 km/h), though the MP40s can only get up to 150 km/h.

Obviously a non-stop express bus is faster than a train that makes ten intermediate stops. That just means that service to Hamilton needs to operate with limited stops if it intends to capture the Hamilton-Toronto demand rather than just the demand between cities in the middle. Given that the LSW Niagara Service covers Union-Burlington in 40 minutes making four intermediate stops, and VIA covers Union-Aldershot in 35 minutes making two intermediate stops, it is easily possible to operate trains with travel times on par with GO route 16. The main question is with respect to peak-hour track capacity.

Is the MP40's speed limit engine horsepower or a limit of the wheelset etc?

Im curious because the current MP40 fleet is being converted to dual cummins Q60 engines with a total of 5400 hp, much more than the current 4000 hp. http://www.railway-technology.com/news/newsmotivepower-repower-metrolinx-locomotives-new-engines

Even more curious is that wikipedia states that the max speed of the MP40 is 108 mph (174 km/h) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPI_MPXpress