VIA Rail

[p_xavier]

Not sure why they used this pic for the article but nevertheless...

Train traffic to Ottawa up 18% over Canada Day weekend: Via Rail | Ottawa Business Journal

A growing number of Canada Day weekend travellers opted to take the train to the capital this year, according to Via Rail

obj.ca

In 2017, for the 150th, I was surprised that I could book a return trip on July 1st the morning.

 

[smallspy]

Of course it is, gauge and lateral forces are important aspects in any rail system.

Sure. But that the rail is going to be laid with 115lb/yd rail versus 132lb/yd and at a 1:40 cant or 1:45 cant is immaterial. The rolling stock - both for the REM and VIA's own - is capable of running on both and, in the case of VIA, does so regularly.

Dan

 

[kEiThZ]

Yes but it's entirely hypothetical at this point.

Discussions have been had, but it's limited to stronger rails in the tunnel corridor.

Are you in that line of work? This detail about what was discussed seems awfully specific.

In 2017, for the 150th, I was surprised that I could book a return trip on July 1st the morning.

Revenue management. Just like airlines. They will keep pushing up the fare as seats fill up until the last minute or even sometimes let seats go empty.

 

[Garuda]

Ottawa station does not have enough train traffic at the present time to allow for successful retail operations. This will gradually change if HFR gets off the ground, when the Confederation LIne opens and if a pedestrian connection is opened to the Trainyards development to the south via the station. Ottawa station is in an awkward location wedged between railway tracks and the Queensway.

Ottawa station should have an underground walk way to the Railway yards shopping centre to the south. The problem is that the owner, the feds, have no incentive to provide for a better train/ retail experience.

The crappy cafe should be replaced by a Starbucks or similar vendor that actually offers quality food.

If I had my way I’d lease it out for redevelopment and do a major replanning to move the intercity bus station to the railway station and remove the long term parking. And construction would start shortly after the opening of the LRT.

You’re right there’s is much there, but the station can be a hub itself and zone the area for higher density development.

 

[Streety McCarface]

The crappy cafe should be replaced by a Starbucks or similar vendor that actually offers quality food.

You may want to lay off the legal weed before posting online ???

 

[lrt's friend]

Ottawa station should have an underground walk way to the Railway yards shopping centre to the south. The problem is that the owner, the feds, have no incentive to provide for a better train/ retail experience.

The crappy cafe should be replaced by a Starbucks or similar vendor that actually offers quality food.

If I had my way I’d lease it out for redevelopment and do a major replanning to move the intercity bus station to the railway station and remove the long term parking. And construction would start shortly after the opening of the LRT.

You’re right there’s is much there, but the station can be a hub itself and zone the area for higher density development.

One of the selling features of the location of the VIA station is the availability of parking. It was a loss when Union Station closed in 1966 but the city has gradually turned that loss into a gain. Like most cities, Ottawa has grown very suburban. If the station is going to be in a suburban location, on-site parking will sell VIA seats. I have parked there several times. The Confederation Line in lieu of parking availability will be a deterrent for me. I don't live anywhere near the Confederation Line and I would say at least 95% of Ottawans don't live within walking distance of a Confederation Line station. . .

 

[robmausser]

You may want to lay off the legal weed before posting online ???

They didn't say that it should be replaced with a Cinnabon....

 

[kEiThZ]

Ottawa station should have an underground walk way to the Railway yards shopping centre to the south. The problem is that the owner, the feds, have no incentive to provide for a better train/ retail experience.

The crappy cafe should be replaced by a Starbucks or similar vendor that actually offers quality food.

If I had my way I’d lease it out for redevelopment and do a major replanning to move the intercity bus station to the railway station and remove the long term parking. And construction would start shortly after the opening of the LRT.

You’re right there’s is much there, but the station can be a hub itself and zone the area for higher density development.

1. The city has a development plan that envisions substantial development around the station.

2. There's no business case for a Starbucks franchise there without substantially more traffic. And a connection of that captive audience to the Trainyards might worsen the business case for whichever vendor is there. Let's not forget that VIA also has a lounge with snacks in the station and sells food on the train itself. And it's not a situation like an airport where you can't take anything past security and need to buy once inside.

3. The bus terminal in Ottawa is privately owned, but managed by a Greyhound subsidiary. It's been proposed to be moved to the VIA station before. That move was opposed by the owner at the time. It'll move if/when HFR happens and Greyhound loses a chunk of its Toronto, Montreal and Kingston businesses. The combination of HFR and easy access to LRT will take a chunk out of Greyhound while incentivizing all the other regional operators to work with VIA. Greyhound will follow, unless they want to see their competitors gain share.

 

[bbdfollower]

2. There's no business case for a Starbucks franchise there without substantially more traffic. And a connection of that captive audience to the Trainyards might worsen the business case for whichever vendor is there. Let's not forget that VIA also has a lounge with snacks in the station and sells food on the train itself. And it's not a situation like an airport where you can't take anything past security and need to buy once inside.

You can't take any liquids, but it's fine to take food in. We often do this so as to avoid being locked into the (usually) high priced vendors with questionable quantity.

 

[kEiThZ]

One of the selling features of the location of the VIA station is the availability of parking. It was a loss when Union Station closed in 1966 but the city has gradually turned that loss into a gain. Like most cities, Ottawa has grown very suburban. If the station is going to be in a suburban location, on-site parking will sell VIA seats. I have parked there several times. The Confederation Line in lieu of parking availability will be a deterrent for me.

I agree that parking there will be necessary. And I would bet that any HFR effort will involve the construction of a parking structure and bus terminal. But parking is not nearly as much of a deterrent as you suggest. I don't have official stats, but every single time I've taken the train, most passengers arrive/depart there by transit or taxi, drop-off, rideshare, etc. There's very few that are parking there. Especially since parking is expensive. I have never seen a train empty out to have most of the riders head for the lot.

I don't live anywhere near the Confederation Line and I would say at least 95% of Ottawans don't live within walking distance of a Confederation Line station. . .

Patently untrue since the Confederation Line goes through the densest part of Ottawa. If I had to guess, I'd say something like 10-20% of Ottawa is within 5 km (15 min bus ride) of a Confederation Line station. And post Stage 2 in six years, 77% of Ottawa will be within 5 km of rail.

 

[lrt's friend]

I

I agree that parking there will be necessary. And I would bet that any HFR effort will involve the construction of a parking structure and bus terminal. But parking is not nearly as much of a deterrent as you suggest. I don't have official stats, but every single time I've taken the train, most passengers arrive/depart there by transit or taxi, drop-off, rideshare, etc. There's very few that are parking there. Especially since parking is expensive. I have never seen a train empty out to have most of the riders head for the lot.



Patently untrue since the Confederation Line goes through the densest part of Ottawa. If I had to guess, I'd say something like 10-20% of Ottawa is within 5 km (15 min bus ride) of a Confederation Line station. And post Stage 2 in six years, 77% of Ottawa will be within 5 km of rail.

I did say walking distance. 5 km is not walking distance. Most people are not going to use a 30 minute local bus to transfer to the Confederation Line to get to the station while carrying luggage. You said it yourself, that most people come by taxi, rideshare or drop-off, but many also park there. They can accommodate hundreds of vehicles and I have seen one of the two parking lots full. Taxi is very expensive for me because of the distance. and transit is unreliable because of the number of transfers and poor frequency. I am not anxious to spend $100 for round trip taxi fare, when my VIA ticket might not be that much more than that. I can't do rideshare.

 

[Garuda]

You may want to lay off the legal weed before posting online ???

I only smoke... the finest artisanal crack Etobicoke has to offer I’ll have you know.

 

[p_xavier]

Are you in that line of work? This detail about what was discussed seems awfully specific.

Revenue management. Just like airlines. They will keep pushing up the fare as seats fill up until the last minute or even sometimes let seats go empty.

Yes in transit, but not on that aspect. I asked an engineer directly. I can only speak on a topic if it appeared in the media.

 

[kEiThZ]

I did say walking distance.

If the definition is walking distance, than most cities in the world won't have more than 5-10% of the population within walking distance of rail stations. That's not even true in Toronto. 95% within walking distance of rail is only happening in Hong Kong or Singapore. I don't even think London or Paris would meet that threshold.

And why only rail? Does BRT not count? The Transitway did a fantastic job providing rapid transit I'd say.

5 km is not walking distance. Most people are not going to use a 30 minute local bus to transfer to the Confederation Line to get to the station while carrying luggage.

5 km is about a 15-20 min bus ride. TTC buses average about 17 km/h. I would think OC Transpo would be about the same in most suburbaneseque areas. So with that in mind, I would think most people won't have an issue using a bus to access the LRT, if they don't have an excessive amount of baggage. This is certainly not a challenge elsewhere in the world.

. You said it yourself, that most people come by taxi, rideshare or drop-off, but many also park there.

And quite a few by transit, at least when the Transitway was open. I expect transit mode share to rise after the LRT. There's also a lot more condos built in the core in the last 6 years since the Transitway was closed.

I am not anxious to spend $100 for round trip taxi fare, when my VIA ticket might not be that much more than that.

Your case sounds atypical because:

1) You live far from the station. Far enough that it's a $50 cab ride. Between Tremblay and Fallowfield, most of Ottawa. It's about $30 to get from Place D'Orleans to Tremblay. And about $40 from Kanata Centrum to Fallowfield. To end up with an average of $50 in each direction, you'd have to live pretty far.

2) You sound like you don't take transit often (probably maybe commuting) and don't take VIA often and for short trips. Paying parking makes sense for you because cab fare is high.

For most of Ottawa, $16 per day or $100 per month is going to motivate plenty of people to put up with a 15 min bus ride, even if they have some baggage. Or to just cab there.

So parking is there for the marginal users like yourself. The real question is whether the provision of that parking generates enough user traffic to justify that lot, or whether say using the space for a bus terminal would create more ridership.

I would expect at least one of those lots to become a bus terminal with HFR. And a parking structure to be built in the other one or above/below the bus terminal. I would not expect parking to scale up substantially with the increased usage of HFR. At $50 000 per spot, parking structures are expensive to build, and $16/day won't pay for that. So I'd expect a lower ratio of spots and much higher charges. Besides, the HFR concept isn't about chasing marginal passengers but grabbing all those who are used to using transit regularly, particularly as LRT, subway and suburban rail networks ramp up in Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal and Quebec City. Don't need large and expensive parking structures to service those users.

 

[gweed123]

I agree there should be a hybrid service between GO and VIA that runs these distances. Basic, bare bones with UP Express style seating. For that to happen, the federal government needs to let VIA act more like a business and buy more infrasatruce and lease out more space in the train stations for better quality retail (looking at you Ottawa station). Berlin's Central Station is a great example of what can happen when a railway takes advantage of foot traffic operates more like a shopping centre that happens to offer waiting space for a train that a hospital waiting area (looking at you again Ottawa station).

I think the federal government would also need to release VIA from the requirement of having to serve every little town along the corridor as well. If such a dual-layered system were to be adopted, I think VIA should set a threshold that it won't service any city/town in Southern Ontario with a population less than 75,000. Focus on express links between the major population centres, and let the Province take care of the smaller communities in between.

So between Windsor and Montreal, VIA should only service: Windsor, London, Kitchener, Pearson Airport, Toronto, Markham, Peterborough, Southwest Ottawa (Fallowfield), Ottawa, Dorval (Trudeau Airport), Montreal. Leave everything in between the local, Provincial service.