VIA Rail

[cplchanb]

Behind the Globe's paywall:

Liberal government says it’s still reviewing VIA Rail’s expansion plans in spite of budget silence

Federal Infrastructure Minister François-Philippe Champagne said a ‘range of options’ are currently being considered to support the plan, including the possibility that it could receive funding by the recently created Canada Infrastructure Bank

www.theglobeandmail.com

Can someone who has access please summarise for the the rest of us plebs.

 

[steveintoronto]

Can someone who has access please summarise for the the rest of us plebs.

There's not a lot new in the article, but Bill Curry continues to be the intrepid reporter on the case, which is valuable, because we're hearing so little on this. Basically Curry puts in print quotes that he's transcribed from VIA and the Gov't. Short version: "More to come but not in the budget".

This is interesting though:

Mr. Garneau’s department issued a contract request in December for a professional engineer to provide technical advice through to March, 2020 – with a potential for extension – on Via’s plan. The request said the government was seeking input as to how VIA Rail’s HFR plan could work with the light-rail project being built in Montreal. The two projects may be required to share a tunnel to the city’s central train station. Another option would require some Via passengers to transfer to the new light-rail line to reach the downtown core.

'
That's something that many of us had given-up on, including some VIA executive staff. I don't know what to add on that save for "interesting". REM couldn't have happened without the Feds assisting.

 

[crs1026]

The key statement for me in the article was “continues to study”. I mean, JFK did less study when he decided.to send man to the moon!

The Montreal tunnel issue is for me a showstopper - if VIA has to circle around Mount Royal, or worse terminate north of the downtown somewhere, my view is don’t bother with the project.

While AMT (and hence the province, or regional government) may hold title to the tunnel, there is enough legal and financial leverage held in Ottawa to defend VIA’s interests - I suspect the will to get tough isn’t there.

The idea of HFR was clearly not in the breadbasket of “affects the daily lives and finances of the middle class” - so it was arguably a political outrider for the current budget. But budget items retain more legitimacy and momentum as policy decisions than pre election promises.

The idea of this government keeping HFR in the back of the fridge for some opportune moment just isn’t helpful. REM in particular imposes a best-before date on the concept.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

^ When will we have a better sense on how the REM issue will impact HFR? Is the tunnel the only option for HFR to get into downtown Montreal? I'm just not that familiar with the geography of Montreal.

 

[nfitz]

The idea of this government keeping HFR in the back of the fridge for some opportune moment just isn’t helpful. REM in particular imposes a best-before date on the concept.

With the upcoming election, at this point I figure that HFR is dead.

Though if it isn't, I'm not sure that REM is a show-stopper. With the new west island REM service, perhaps it becomes more feasibile for VIA to run into downtown on the old CP alignment - I'm pretty sure that used to be 3 tracks through NDG when I was a kid. And they have their current alignment

Really REM doesn't have to impact Montreal-Ottawa (or Toronto) services, it's more how to get to Quebec City from downtown. Perhaps just leave that alone, and dump that problem on the Quebec government - they created the issue. Let them solve it.

 

[crs1026]

Really REM doesn't have to impact Montreal-Ottawa (or Toronto) services, it's more how to get to Quebec City from downtown. Perhaps just leave that alone, and dump that problem on the Quebec government - they created the issue. Let them solve it.

You make a good point - The rest of the project is still viable, and a sloppier routing to Quebec City only impacts a fraction of potential or likely customers across the network. I suspect the Quebec voters won’t oppose any of the options. So really, why do I care? Let Quebec figure it out.

Except that in order for HFR to create momentum for further investment and greater market share, there are only so many places that one can nail its feet to the floor with a sub optimal performance envelope. The circle route may only add ten or fifteen minutes to trip time, but HFR is full of such trade offs against marketability and investor appetite

This is Canadian passenger rail service after all, i guess death by a thousand paper cuts is an enduring aspect of our rail system.

- Paul

 

[robmausser]

Can someone who has access please summarise for the the rest of us plebs.

Liberal government says it’s still reviewing VIA Rail’s expansion plans in spite of budget silence
Federal ministers insist the government is still actively reviewing Via Rail’s multibillion-dollar plan for dedicated passenger-rail tracks from Quebec City to Windsor, even though Tuesday’s federal budget made no mention of the issue.
Ottawa’s silence on the project – which Via calls High Frequency Rail, or HFR – is raising concern among municipal and community leaders in areas such as Trois-Rivières that stand to benefit from the new lines.
Federal Infrastructure Minister François-Philippe Champagne told The Globe and Mail on Wednesday the government has not yet made a final decision. He said large pools of unallocated funding for infrastructure are already in place from previous budgets, so there was no need to announce anything further in relation to Via Rail.

 

[robmausser]

^ When will we have a better sense on how the REM issue will impact HFR? Is the tunnel the only option for HFR to get into downtown Montreal? I'm just not that familiar with the geography of Montreal.

There are other ways but they would all be less than ideal.

They would all involve some form of expropriation.

Basically where the CN and CP tracks in the city intersect but there is no connection between them.

another option, reversing back west on the CN tracks and then a transfer to the CP tracks that eventually become the Mascouche line and then the new VIA line to Quebec City, goes through a CP train yard. Again less than ideal.

 

[robmausser]

Passenger rail advocate calls VIA's proposed Ontario-Quebec a 'tourist train' to the 'hinterland'

An Ontario passenger rail advocate has called VIA Rail Canada’s proposed $4-billion plan for a high-frequency rail (HFR) service between Ontario and Quebec…

torontosun.com

But Langan said there are other options.

“CP has a main line that runs between Toronto and Montreal right next to CN and their traffic is down to a standstill,” he said. “It’s only a question of time and years before you could buy that track.”

This is the first I am hearing about this. Its always been my understanding that CP freight traffic has been increasing dramatically.

Furthermore, standstill or not, CP hates passenger rail and I think they are not willing to sell off their mainline.

However an idea of mine was always for VIArail to build crossover tracks between the CP and CN rail lines that parallel each other and use the CP lines as "backup" when a slow freight train on the CN line is affecting service, or even worse has derailed.

Pics attached. Yellow would be Via only crossings. Would only be possible between Toronto and Belleville, but thats still a substantial area.

Belleville station would be bypassed, could only be for express trains not servicing that station.

 

[nfitz]

I've never quite understood how the VIA HFR was supposed to connect to the old Trois-Rivières Subdivision in Montreal. It's easy enough to see how you could run on that into Park Station. I suppose (ignoring CP's freight demands) you could then keep going from Park into Dorval station.

I wonder if a non-tunnel approach for Quebec City to run Montreal-Quebec services from Dorval (to connect to the REM and VIA trains) and stopping Park Station (to interchange with Metro Parc on the Blue line). You could also add a station at Canora, so that passengers can change to the REM. (Canora is at the north end of the tunnel, currently 1 station north of Central).

You skip downtown completely on Montreal-Quebec services, but you can change easily to VIA Ottawa/Toronto services (probably quicker than today (and they can continue into Downtown through Dorval). But you've got lots of interchanges to the REM and Metro. You could even stop at Metro De La Concorde on the Orange line in Laval if you wanted overkill.

 

[lrt's friend]

Ottawa-Montreal and Montreal-Quebec City are often connected runs as a convenience to customers. Some Ottawa trains continue onto Quebec City. If Quebec City trains skip downtown Montreal, this creates problems for Ottawa bound trains. It means that Ottawa bound passengers must find another way to reach Dorval from downtown Montreal or we have to eliminate direct trains between Ottawa and Quebec City. This will not be attractive.

One of the points of HFR is that there will only be one route between Quebec City to Toronto for HFR service, which means that service is seamless. No transfers are required on the entire corridor.

 

[crs1026]

Passenger rail advocate calls VIA's proposed Ontario-Quebec a 'tourist train' to the 'hinterland'

An Ontario passenger rail advocate has called VIA Rail Canada’s proposed $4-billion plan for a high-frequency rail (HFR) service between Ontario and Quebec…

torontosun.com

This is the first I am hearing about this. Its always been my understanding that CP freight traffic has been increasing dramatically.

Furthermore, standstill or not, CP hates passenger rail and I think they are not willing to sell off their mainline.

However an idea of mine was always for VIArail to build crossover tracks between the CP and CN rail lines that parallel each other and use the CP lines as "backup" when a slow freight train on the CN line is affecting service, or even worse has derailed.

Both statements are true. CP is down to as few as three trains a day each way on the Toronto-Montreal line..... but they are often hugely long trains. There are only a couple of sidings between Toronto and Smiths Falls that are long enough to hold a train. So they fleet in one direction, then fleet in the other direction. Adding VIA to that equation would be as bad as what the Canadian faces on the prairies.

But you are correct - CP will never hamstring itself by giving up its ability to run freight when and where they choose. Traffic will build in the decades ahead. While I'm not always sympathetic to the freight railways, the reality is the economy needs adequate freight capacity and it's a mistake to shortchange CP on its own line.

My own pet suggestion is to build connections around Bowmanville, and near Dorval. Run directionally, meaning use one of the two CN tracks for freight running only in one direction and use CP for freight in the other direction. Sell the second CN track to VIA, plus the third track where it exists, and install sidings along it. Gives VIA the equivalent of what they would have with HFR, but without having to drag the Havelock Sub out of the dirt, and consistently better speed potential. CN might need bidirectional capability around Belleville as their yard there has strategic value, but that's not that much more track to build.

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

I've never quite understood how the VIA HFR was supposed to connect to the old Trois-Rivières Subdivision in Montreal. It's easy enough to see how you could run on that into Park Station. I suppose (ignoring CP's freight demands) you could then keep going from Park into Dorval station.

I wonder if a non-tunnel approach for Quebec City to run Montreal-Quebec services from Dorval (to connect to the REM and VIA trains) and stopping Park Station (to interchange with Metro Parc on the Blue line). You could also add a station at Canora, so that passengers can change to the REM. (Canora is at the north end of the tunnel, currently 1 station north of Central).

You skip downtown completely on Montreal-Quebec services, but you can change easily to VIA Ottawa/Toronto services (probably quicker than today (and they can continue into Downtown through Dorval). But you've got lots of interchanges to the REM and Metro. You could even stop at Metro De La Concorde on the Orange line in Laval if you wanted overkill.

I'm not an expert on who lives where in Montreal. I have to admit, it might indeed be quite marketable to serve Montreal as a midpoint of an Ottawa - Quebec City service with two or three stops placed across the north side of the city. For many the "last mile" journey might actually be shorter, faster, and more attractive that way.

It just seems illogical to eschew the downtown to downtown market, especially for business travellers. That segment is probably the most sensitive to competition from air travel. The whole premise of that market is avoiding limo rides to the airport, constructive use of trip time, and arrival close to business centers. A north end stop creates a "last mile" component to these trips. Similarly, the Vertu-Ballantyne-Lachine-Central loop sure seems like a detractor for this market, although less time sensitive travellers wouldn't care.

The risk of the north route is that once adopted, it will be attractive to pull VIA out of Central Station altogether and route Toronto-Montreal trains that way as well. We made that mistake in Ottawa, seemingly irrevocably, and we made it for 15 years in Quebec City. Show me any other system in the world that pulled out of city centers altogether.

Is there a cost projection floating around on what it would cost to tunnel a third track next to the two existing tracks? Spread across the REM and HFR projects, that might not prove to be fatal to either project.... and as the biggest contribution to both is federal money anyways I can't see the harm. Maybe Montreal and Quebec could chip in a share. (big leap of faith here, I know).

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

Show me any other system in the world that pulled out of city centers altogether.

What about London and Paris, that never had central terminals. Instead they had (and still have) terminals around the periphery of "downtown" and you have to take other services to get from one terminal to the other, to continue journeys that don't start or finish in the capital. Not quite the same I admit, but it's not like there's much downtown near Paddington or Victoria! Or Gare Du Nord.

Personally, I haven't found Ottawa inconvenient since the transitway opened. And easier than getting to the Ottawa bus terminal.

BTW, how did HFR envision getting trains from the tunnel onto the Trois-Rivieres sub? I think the connecting track that VIA used to use in the 1980s is long gone, and been redeveloped? (you'd think I'd know better, given I've ridden that train ... but it was winter, it was dark ... I don't know where I was!)

 

[kEiThZ]

Yep. I don't think multiple terminii are an issue. Have the Jonquière, Senneterre and Quebec City routes terminate at a northern or eastern terminus. Think of it like a VIA Quebec hub. And have the Corridor and Ocean trains terminate at Gare Centrale. Ideal? No. But certainly workable if said station is accessible by rail transit from Gare Centrale.

As to the importance of Quebec City to the plans, I would think of it as political. Ridership wise, going west to Pearson, KWC and up to London would probably garner as much or more ridership.