VIA Rail

[lenaitch]

I would assume that the cost is dramatically higher for a “guaranteed response” than “if resources are available” type of contract, as that implies owning buses and hiring drivers specifically for this contract. So now you got to ask yourself how much taxpayer money you are willing to burn for an emergency service which seems to be of use far-less-than-annually for any given such contracted company.

Also, having such a contract with someone like TTC is less useful than one in, say, Kingston, as the closer an incident is to Toronto, the more likely you are to have other alternatives in cases of emergencies, whereas it would take the TTC at least 3 (more likely: 4-5) hours to get a bus to Kingston.

I’m repeating myself, but it’s incredibly inefficient for a relatively small railroad with such a spread-out network like VIA Rail to deploy the required scale of resources to respond to such extremely rare events. Only the federal government itself has the capability to pool and coordinate such resources, potentially aided by accompanying legislation which declares stranded trains in need of evacuation as emergency situations which oblige at least public bus services to deploy buses…

Stranded, grumpy hungry passengers is so not a federal emergency response issue. Unless it degrades to the point that public safety is a concern, it's not even a primary provincial or local emergency services issue. It is a too-easy trap to upload to the federal government (the provinces and municipalities to it all the time, and the feds muddy the waters further by dipping their toes in non-federal issues). I know of no federal agency that is equipped or mandated to recover passengers from a land-based public conveyance. The CAF, through the Joint Rescue Coordination Centers, is primarily responsible for maritime and aviation incidents. They will assist in land-based incidents at the request of a province. Having said all of that, do we expect them to hoist passengers out by helicopter? Other military assets could be made available as an 'aid of the civil power' provided a request flows from the Premier (or possibly Sol-Gen) to Chief of Defence Staff. By the time that gets sorted out, the passengers could probably walk out. Even at that, what assets could the military bring to the table. If it is near a base, they might have some buses, trucks and vans.

Emergency response, if in fact these are true 'emergencies', is primarily a local responsibility. Emergency services in larger municipalities will often have agreements with other municipal departments, such as transit. As Paul mentions, there might be issues with those assets operating outside of the municipality; I don't know. Outside of larger municipalities, local services might be thin.

If the government saw fit to amend legislation to make events such as these a federal responsibility, money would have to flow. In my humble opinion, domestic non-natural disaster response is not a military matter. Even with more money, the CDS has already said that the assistance they have been providing to fires, floods, etc. are coming at the cost of training and readiness.

 

[micheal_can]

I’m all for aid to the civil power but (a) the military have had as much if not more surge capacity cut as the railroads have and (b) as the Lastman mayoral cabinet would tell you, having the army rescue people from a VIA train would be used as a stick to beat the latter organization until it died of its wounds

Well, then accept the reality that happened.

 

[micheal_can]

Stranded, grumpy hungry passengers is so not a federal emergency response issue. Unless it degrades to the point that public safety is a concern, it's not even a primary provincial or local emergency services issue. It is a too-easy trap to upload to the federal government (the provinces and municipalities to it all the time, and the feds muddy the waters further by dipping their toes in non-federal issues). I know of no federal agency that is equipped or mandated to recover passengers from a land-based public conveyance. The CAF, through the Joint Rescue Coordination Centers, is primarily responsible for maritime and aviation incidents. They will assist in land-based incidents at the request of a province. Having said all of that, do we expect them to hoist passengers out by helicopter? Other military assets could be made available as an 'aid of the civil power' provided a request flows from the Premier (or possibly Sol-Gen) to Chief of Defence Staff. By the time that gets sorted out, the passengers could probably walk out. Even at that, what assets could the military bring to the table. If it is near a base, they might have some buses, trucks and vans.

Emergency response, if in fact these are true 'emergencies', is primarily a local responsibility. Emergency services in larger municipalities will often have agreements with other municipal departments, such as transit. As Paul mentions, there might be issues with those assets operating outside of the municipality; I don't know. Outside of larger municipalities, local services might be thin.

If the government saw fit to amend legislation to make events such as these a federal responsibility, money would have to flow. In my humble opinion, domestic non-natural disaster response is not a military matter. Even with more money, the CDS has already said that the assistance they have been providing to fires, floods, etc. are coming at the cost of training and readiness.

They drive their buses to the road beside the train. The passengers board the bus. They are then able to be taken where they are safe till another train or another option. For road inaccessible places, there are bigger issues.

 

[lenaitch]

They drive their buses to the road beside the train. The passengers board the bus. They are then able to be taken where they are safe till another train or another option. For road inaccessible places, there are bigger issues.

"They" and "their buses" who? That's been the foundation of the discussion. Apparently the report said VIA was unsuccessful in their efforts to secure buses.

 

[micheal_can]

"They" and "their buses" who? That's been the foundation of the discussion. Apparently the report said VIA was unsuccessful in their efforts to secure buses.

The CAF.

 

[lenaitch]

The CAF.

OK. You were apparently in the military; how many buses do you think they have? I couldn't find any public numbers but a wild guess would be a couple per base. Larger bases such as Borden might have a couple more. Tie that into the number of members qualified to operate them, divide that by how many are available at any (unscheduled) given time, and then wait for the authority to come down to be tasked for a non-military purpose with non-military occupants.

 

[micheal_can]

OK. You were apparently in the military; how many buses do you think they have? I couldn't find any public numbers but a wild guess would be a couple per base. Larger bases such as Borden might have a couple more. Tie that into the number of members qualified to operate them, divide that by how many are available at any (unscheduled) given time, and then wait for the authority to come down to be tasked for a non-military purpose with non-military occupants.

There is also something called a duty driver and a recall list. Even if it were 1 bus from both Montreal and Quebec City(CFB Valcartier), that would be a start to ferry the worst off passengers first.

 

[Ratazana]

Interesting to read these two discussions happening at the same time…
If VIA + possibly gov + possibly military can’t even handle a VIA slow train emergency, how can they handle even more complicated emergencies that will come with High Speed Rail?
We as a country is just not ready for the 21st century…

 

[Jonny5]

There is also something called a duty driver and a recall list. Even if it were 1 bus from both Montreal and Quebec City(CFB Valcartier), that would be a start to ferry the worst off passengers first.

And suddenly every passenger declares they are "the worst off". Wouldn't want to sort through that mess. And then people start Tweeting "OMG it's not fair someone else got on the bus and not me!:"

 

[micheal_can]

And suddenly every passenger declares they are "the worst off". Wouldn't want to sort through that mess. And then people start Tweeting "OMG it's not fair someone else got on the bus and not me!:"

By that,I mean the disabled, elderly and those showing signs of heatstroke. However, if enough buses can be brought,then it negates that split.

 

[Natika33]

I agree with those saying it should be a municipal emergency response system. Would it be feasible to deploy the closest school bus fleet and their drivers? For the most part, aren't most school buses parked for most of the time except in the mornings & late afternoon?

 

[micheal_can]

I agree with those saying it should be a municipal emergency response system. Would it be feasible to deploy the closest school bus fleet and their drivers? For the most part, aren't most school buses parked for most of the time except in the mornings & late afternoon?

The problem is what happens during the summer?

 

[crs1026]

I agree with those saying it should be a municipal emergency response system. Would it be feasible to deploy the closest school bus fleet and their drivers? For the most part, aren't most school buses parked for most of the time except in the mornings & late afternoon?

It's possible, but consider the number of variables involved..... figure out which school board is closest to the train, find someone with the authority to approve that, then have them contact the contractor who actually owns and operates the buses, then find drivers available, then give precise instructions

The point is to have a preparedness plan with all the contact information and how-to steps in the book (yes, I would expect paper copies somewhere..... IT systems have a habit of crashing in disasters...) so that a minimum of creative thinking and hunting down decisionmakers and justifying the asks is needed in the heat of the moment.

I suspect that a tabletop would conclude that lots of scenarios do not involve evacuation. The reality is, passengers riding common carriers may have to endure delay..... ask anyone who has spent a night in an airport. The issues for ViA will be keeping the heat and light on, assuring toilets, and supplying food and water, and meeting any medical needs of travellers that emerge because of an unforeseen delay . Finding a replacement conveyance is a logistical necessity, but is not necessarily a life and safety matter.

- Paul

 

[Natika33]

It's possible, but consider the number of variables involved..... figure out which school board is closest to the train, find someone with the authority to approve that, then have them contact the contractor who actually owns and operates the buses, then find drivers available, then give precise instructions

The point is to have a preparedness plan with all the contact information and how-to steps in the book (yes, I would expect paper copies somewhere..... IT systems have a habit of crashing in disasters...) so that a minimum of creative thinking and hunting down decisionmakers and justifying the asks is needed in the heat of the moment.

I suspect that a tabletop would conclude that lots of scenarios do not involve evacuation. The reality is, passengers riding common carriers may have to endure delay..... ask anyone who has spent a night in an airport. The issues for ViA will be keeping the heat and light on, assuring toilets, and supplying food and water, and meeting any medical needs of travellers that emerge because of an unforeseen delay . Finding a replacement conveyance is a logistical necessity, but is not necessarily a life and safety matter.

- Paul

Definitely agree a preparedness plan would also be necessary! With a proper plan, which school board(s) would be tapped for which region could be laid out so less trying to figure that out if an emergency happened. The plan could also lay out a series of "if X do Y" scenarios to account for when to keep people on the train & just bring supplies or when to move to evacuation.

 

[nfitz]

I’m all for aid to the civil power but (a) the military have had as much if not more surge capacity cut as the railroads have and (b) as the Lastman mayoral cabinet would tell you, having the army rescue people from a VIA train would be used as a stick to beat the latter organization until it died of its wounds

I don't recall there were complaints about the army deployment in downtown Toronto (though partly perhaps as the follow-on storm never materialized - but they were certainly in the streets quickly). And I heard great compliments about their deployment in Montreal after the ice storm - they may have knocked on almost every door in the city at some point, when the temperature finally plummeted (though few were left to observe!).

But that doesn't seem right right for VIA except perhaps for a medical evacuation, but presumably Ornge is quite capable of that, and whatever agency does it in Quebec.

(joke - forget the buses - make the contract with Ornge to air-drop pizzas )

I couldn't find any public numbers but a wild guess would be a couple per base.

https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/Canadian_Armed_Forces Though I don't think that's an answer.

OMG, I'm on the same side of this with only Can. Clearly I'm in the wrong here ... I humbly apologize.