VIA Rail

[roger1818]

I think a recent lesson is that people love promises of "greening" but refuse to consider that their personal way of life (in terms of where they live, what they drive, how much they drive, etc.) may need to change to drive any "greening". A train is probably quite an attractive proposal since it feels very green but doesn't make anyone feel uncomfortable about living in Milton and driving to Toronto for work in giant SUV.

Good point! The CPC aren't anti green, they just don't want to inconvenience anyone in the process. The carbon tax inconveniences people, as does an EV mandates. Investments in VIA Rail does not, as long as they are perceived to be affordable.

VIA Rail is a bit of a double edged sword for the CPC. While it may not be a priority for them, it is, to quote Douglas Adams, "Mostly harmless," and drastic cuts could be poking a hornets nest. It may not be a priority for investment, but cutting funding could be problematic. For that reason I am quite bearish on the LDF renewal , but kept affordable, HFR could be an attractive investment, especially as a PPP.

 

[evandyk]

It all depends on the sticker price, of course, but I think HSR is a seller in places where the Conservatives can win a lot of seats (GTA suburbs, London, Ottawa, K-W-C, etc.).

Finding the $ after they're elected, of course, is a different story. They can just keep not funding it so that they can keep running on it in the next election.

 

[nfitz]

Ventures coming to SWO (87 on _2_____, 73-78-84 on __3____ and 71-76 on ___4567), as per Groups.io:
View attachment 598550

Operationally, how is it going to work, once it is all Ventures, and 7-car trains are being replaced by 5-car trains (I thought I've seen more than 7 recently though). Or are we going to see some 10-car Venture consists.

 

[roger1818]

Operationally, how is it going to work, once it is all Ventures, and 7-car trains are being replaced by 5-car trains (I thought I've seen more than 7 recently though). Or are we going to see some 10-car Venture consists.

That is the big question we have been discussing for years. VIA has defined what 3, 4, 5 and 7 car Venture trains will look like. The problem is the cars that are removed from a standard 5 car train to make 3 and 4 car trains are not the same type as those needed to make a 7 car train.

 

[nfitz]

Ah, I assumed they were going to simply leave them in semi-permanent 5-car consists, similar to how they did with the Turbo rolling stock. I hadn't realised this was going to be mix-and-match.

 

[smallspy]

Operationally, how is it going to work, once it is all Ventures, and 7-car trains are being replaced by 5-car trains (I thought I've seen more than 7 recently though). Or are we going to see some 10-car Venture consists.

They aren't making 7-car Ventures. All will be of the 5-car variety.

What will happen for certain trains such as 70-64 and 65-75 is that they will not use Venture equipment once the whole of that order has been delivered. Those trains will continue to use some sort of Heritage equipment that allows the use of longer trains.

Dan

 

[roger1818]

Ah, I assumed they were going to simply leave them in semi-permanent 5-car consists, similar to how they did with the Turbo rolling stock. I hadn't realised this was going to be mix-and-match.

If you look at page 11 in this presentation by VIA Rail at the NGEC 10th Annual Meeting, you will see the different planned configurations.

Looking again at the diagram, I'll correct my previous statement. The 7 car train adds two extra economy cars (configurations 1A and 1B). The 4 car train removes only one of the business cars, so it won't help. The 3 car train removes a business car and an economy car (configuration 1B), which will give them 1 of the car types that they need for a 7 car train, but not the other. We will have to see if some of the last trains delivered substitute some of the business cars for economy cars.

 

[roger1818]

They aren't making 7-car Ventures. All will be of the 5-car variety.

What will happen for certain trains such as 70-64 and 65-75 is that they will not use Venture equipment once the whole of that order has been delivered. Those trains will continue to use some sort of Heritage equipment that allows the use of longer trains.

Dan

Interesting. So will they couple them behind either the locomotive or cab car? Presumably at the terminus they would need to shunt them onto the other end of the train (or turn the train) to not block the view from the cab.

 

[lenaitch]

There is decent evidence that they aren't. For example:

• ONR's website says, "The trainsets each include one locomotive and three passenger cars." There is no mention of baggage or dining cars, and while a sleeper could be considered a "passenger car" typically that term typically refers to coaches.
• The press release on Siemen's website says the fleet will include, "galley style food services," which is further evidence that there aren't going to be any dining cars. However, there isn't any mention of Sleeping or baggage facilities, which I am sure they would brag about if there were to be any.
• ONR's website says, "By 2041, annual ridership is currently estimated to be between approximately 40,000 and 60,000." Assuming the upper number and trains 7 days a week, that works out to an average of 82 passengers per day per direction (PPDPD). To accommodate peaks in demand, they would want more capacity than that. A 3 car VIA Venture trainset was expected to have 176 seats, which is about double the average PPDPD. Switching coaches for sleepers would significantly reduce the number of "seats."

None of these are conclusive on their own, but together they provide strong evidence that they aren't modifying them to include dinning, baggage and sleepers. Keeping them to VIA's spec also lowers the risk, as VIA would gladly buy the 3 ONR trainsets to increase their capacity and provide spares, should the Northlander not be "successful."

I have heard or seen nothing from the ONR or in its business case that dining or sleeping cars are envisioned. Like you, I would assume that, if they were, it would be shouted from the roof tops, and the added cost for staff, equipment and facilities (both their own and IA's TMC) would have been mentioned in the business case.

The funding for the Ventures was for the corridor fleet so they could retire the existing fleet. Gaspe isn't in the corridor.

Does Siemens even have a diner, sleeper or baggage in their Venture catalogue? If not, imagine what the cost would be for a bespoke one or two.

 

[micheal_can]

They aren't making 7-car Ventures. All will be of the 5-car variety.

What will happen for certain trains such as 70-64 and 65-75 is that they will not use Venture equipment once the whole of that order has been delivered. Those trains will continue to use some sort of Heritage equipment that allows the use of longer trains.

Dan

Wait, I thought the point of the replacement fleet was to remove all the old equipment from the Corridor service?

 

[Urban Sky]

They aren't making 7-car Ventures. All will be of the 5-car variety.

What will happen for certain trains such as 70-64 and 65-75 is that they will not use Venture equipment once the whole of that order has been delivered. Those trains will continue to use some sort of Heritage equipment that allows the use of longer trains.

Dan

I would assume that 65-75=>70-64 would be the last to be converted, but I can’t imagine that any other equipment will remain in revenue service on the Corridor once the 32nd trainset has been delivered. I‘d rather imagine them doubling the consist…

 

[ssiguy2]

I don't think PP will be anti-VIA anymore than I think JT was pro-VIA. After all, JT has been in power a decade and all he has managed to do is buy some new trains which isn't much of an accomplishment. He's talked a good storm about HFR/HSR but like every other PM in the last half century, he hasn't done a damn thing.

As evandyk noted, PP is making huge inroads into the entire GTA/Ottawa/London which are all predominately Liberal strongholds. It will definitely come up in the election campaign including transit and he will make some solid promises about transportation if he wants to gain all those nice juicy urban seats. Corridor updates will also be more likely due to, wait for it, Danielle Smith. She has presented a very bold proposal for passenger rail expansion throughout the province and HSR between Calgary and Edmonton and she will be looking to her good buddy PP for some hardcore federal cash. PP will need to oblige his old ally and with that will automatically come funds for The Corridor. Politically it would be impossible for him to help one and not the other.

 

[micheal_can]

I don't think PP will be anti-VIA anymore than I think JT was pro-VIA. After all, JT has been in power a decade and all he has managed to do is buy some new trains which isn't much of an accomplishment. He's talked a good storm about HFR/HSR but like every other PM in the last half century, he hasn't done a damn thing.

As evandyk noted, PP is making huge inroads into the entire GTA/Ottawa/London which are all predominately Liberal strongholds. It will definitely come up in the election campaign including transit and he will make some solid promises about transportation if he wants to gain all those nice juicy urban seats. Corridor updates will also be more likely due to, wait for it, Danielle Smith. She has presented a very bold proposal for passenger rail expansion throughout the province and HSR between Calgary and Edmonton and she will be looking to her good buddy PP for some hardcore federal cash. PP will need to oblige his old ally and with that will automatically come funds for The Corridor. Politically it would be impossible for him to help one and not the other.

I think the Corridor service is safe from cuts. As far as HxR,how would he convince his Central Canada voters to spend even more of their money on things that don't support them?

 

[roger1818]

I think the Corridor service is safe from cuts. As far as HxR,how would he convince his Central Canada voters to spend even more of their money on things that don't support them?

What do you mean by Central Canada (we had a whole debate about it a while back and some claimed that Central Canada extends all the way to the Gulf of St. Lawrence)? If Skippy were to also invest in Danielle Smith's rail project, that would go a long way to appease his base. Optimally he would also invest in the Canadian portion of WDOT's Amtrak Cascades project to give something to BC, but that investment is unlikely for several reasons.

 

[Urban Sky]

Friendly reminder that the question of what „Central Canada“ includes (QC and ON) and what not (any provinces or territories to the East, West or North of QC and ON) has been exhaustively discussed and determined:

I would welcome if we could stop encouraging certain trolls here by refraining from engaging into needless discussions about things which have been long settled…