nfitz
Superstar
Where has CP got three tracks, but still can't guarantee one for VIA?
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VIA Rail
- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
micheal_can
Senior Member
Sorry.
What I meant is that both have similar issues with enough tracks.where it is needed.
Urban Sky
Senior Member
You may want to ask yourself what incentives CN would have to relinquish dispatching priority over tracks built within their own ROW? Why should they refuse if tennants are willing to give it money to invest in their own infrastructure without insisting on guaranteed outcomes? CP’s attitude is very different, as they seem willing to sell parts of their underutilized ROWs to let you build your own tracks with your own dispatching authority…
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lenaitch
Senior Member
What you missed was a few posts discussing Ottawa-area VIA station stop service, followed by a few posts discussing a Toronto-area temporary VIA route detour, including a missed station stop. Your post directly followed the detour/missed station discussion and didn't reference what you were asking about. It, therefore, made no sense to anyone else.
nfitz
Superstar
What has this got to do with my question? Why comment if you aren't contributing to the discussion, and stating what everyone knows! Please - stop replying to so many posts.
Money.
Or better yet - no prison time for ignoring legislation and regulations (oh if only they would put prison time in the regulations!
)They used to do this well. Less so in recent decades.
CP appears to be better now. But they certainly weren't in the 1970s, as they did their darndest to stop passenger service on their lines.
If VIA (or HFR'R'US or whatever) rely on CPs goodwill to not start being difficult during another half-century, then HFR will be DOA.
nfitz
Superstar
What has this got to do with my question? Why comment if you aren't contributing to the discussion, and stating what everyone knows! Please - stop replying to so many posts.
Money.
Or better yet - no prison time for ignoring legislation and regulations (oh if only they would put prison time in the regulations!
They used to do this well. Less so in recent decades.
CP appears to be better now. But they certainly weren't in the 1970s, as they did their darndest to stop passenger service on their lines.
If VIA (or HFR'R'US or whatever) rely on CPs goodwill to not start being difficult during another half-century, then HFR will be DOA.
But the question is more why can't they deal with it simply, given they have no problems operating freight between Montreal and Toronto on sections that are single-track now. It's not like the Kingston subdivision is anywhere close to capacity!
Urban Sky
Senior Member
I’m a bit confused now as to where you talk about CN and where about CP, but as I’ve just noted, the attitudes of CN and CP are very different and I don’t foresee any issues with CP and HFR sharing the same ROW, provided that they each have their own, dedicated tracks (maybe it wasn’t clear that I meant “parts” as in “a slice” of the usually 100 ft wide ROW, not necessarily the full width, which would imply abandonment of CP’s own tracks):
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lenaitch
Senior Member
I'm confused too. I'm not aware of any part of CN's Kingston sub being single track.
Regardless, the ability of both to deal with their freight track capacity issues flows from several factors. They control and schedule the movements. If it is a priority freight, even their own lower priority trains have to weight, maybe for a long time. If crews have to be changed out, they deal with. The freight doesn't care (well, maybe the customers do).
Maybe their trains show up hours late, but there aren't big public pixel boards displaying, people waiting for the cargo or freight grumbling about it.
Regardless, the ability of both to deal with their freight track capacity issues flows from several factors. They control and schedule the movements. If it is a priority freight, even their own lower priority trains have to weight, maybe for a long time. If crews have to be changed out, they deal with. The freight doesn't care (well, maybe the customers do).
Maybe their trains show up hours late, but there aren't big public pixel boards displaying, people waiting for the cargo or freight grumbling about it.
smallspy
Senior Member
I suspect that the primary reason is that VIA does not have endless bags of money lying around. A negotiation where one party enters empty-handed and begging for more is not likely to go well in their favour.
Considering that CN's mainline is approximately 6,000 kilometers long, with several dozen major cities on it, it stands to reason that the traffic patterns on some sections of the line would be busier than on others, and thus they tailor the capacity to match.
Dan
reaperexpress
Senior Member
I think they're referring to the single track segments on the York Subdivision in Scarborough and Pickering, which are part of the same freight route from Toronto (Vaughan) to Montréal
MisterF
Senior Member
People have been saying this for years but the reality that it's just not going to happen in the forseeable future. CN isn't going to willingly give up control over its own ROW and the federal government isn't going to force them to. I for one am glad that Via Rail stopped asking these kinds of questions and got to work on a plan that works within the political realities and doesn't rely on wishful thinking.
nfitz
Superstar
The Kingston sub isn't single-tracked, but CN's freights only join the Kingston sub, where the York sub joins the Kingston sub, and a good chunk of the York sub is single track.
There's not much more freight (if any) on the Kingston sub than the York sub (unless I'm really forgetting about something). So why is CN interfering with VIA's use of the third track on parts of the Kingston sub?
Why isn't the VIA solution to restore less than 4 hours service to Montreal and increase service frequencies, not to get 4 tracks along the Kingston sub?
I can't believe it would be cheaper to get less than 4 hour travel times to Montreal via Peterborough.
nfitz
Superstar
And yet CP is going to willingly give up control of part of it's own ROW?
Urban Sky
Senior Member
Why is that so difficult to believe? What kind of carrot do you want VIA to throw at CN which could possibly compell that massive corporation with a market capitalization of $100 billion to accept relinquishing full control over its own assets?
CP doesn’t really have much of double-tracks left anywhere on their network and apparently doesn’t plan to restore them even in the long-term. Why should they cling to the entirety of its ROW, if there non-competing railroads who are willing to pay to to build their own tracks next to theirs?
Northern Light
Superstar
In fairness to Nfitz, I think he's clearly indicated that he sees a roll for legislated priority; Amtrak has this in the U.S. a country where pols and many bureaucrats are beset by brutal lobbying from those w/funds and interests.
So it hardly seems outlandish that Ottawa might find the........ahem........courage to legislate on this file and even the threat of same, if taken seriously should open the route of a negotiated settlement.
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Additionally, depending on what you imagine you're trying to accomplish with this, the argument could be made that the Federal gov't has now put 12B on the table to achieve VIA's service objectives in the corridor, albeit likely through a partner.......
If a small portion of that were hived off to achieve the service objectives that are desired along the existing corridor route....there's a fairly rich carrot.
Both CN and CP maintain surplus corridor space that has no forseeable economic return for the next generation.
Depending on the strategies of the day, one or the other may show greater openness to monetizing that space if the right offer comes along. Its worth saying, CN sold off large chunks corridor to Mx and some to VIA as well not sooo long ago.
Of course, there were generally complete sell-offs, rather than partial; but still, I do think its fair to ask if there may be a path to seeing more of that openness for a price that would be worthwhile to the Canadian Federal, or Ontario Provincial gov'ts , if not VIA itself.