VIA Rail

[crs1026]

I don't think that significantly impacts my point. Out of Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Chicago, NYC are all well within reach of a night train service.

They are within reach - but would VIA use one of its scarce slots on CN with the reduced revenue potential of an overnight train? Would an overnight train build the corridor's business if it meant reducing daytime runs to free up the slot?

Maybe when H(whatever) happens, and VIA has its own tracks, a night train Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal might become practical. But operational and maintenance needs might still argue against it.

The greatest revenue potential may actually be the late-night dropoff of coach passengers out of the originating cities - and the potential to resell those seats to early morning commuters heading for the destination city. The much-missed Train 651 from Kingston is just a reincarnation of the old Cavalier. But coach trains laying over in London or Kingston serve that market just as easily and at lower cost.

Trans border sleeper trains are not impossible, but the prospect of a mid-trip customs inspection pretty much destroys the allure.

Don't underestimate the added overhead costs, either. Overnight trains were a different proposition when there was a network of these (to Chicago, New York, Kapuskasing, Ottawa and Montreal as well as one or two transcons per day) - cleaning and stocking of laundry supplies meal service, etc. was a lot different back then. I don't think VIA would want to expand these in the context of a single transcon that only runs twice a week.

And then there's the challenge of operating stations in the wee hours, and for only one or two trains all night.

All in reach, but for all that effort and expense I would rather VIA focus on building daytime business, perhaps to more city pairs or increased frequency or extended business class.

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

I'm still looking for the 250kph track between all of these places, or at least the funding/will to create it. An overnight train to Thunder Bay for those ones of people who would be willing to pay for it.

 

[Admiral Beez]

With the exception of the Canadian from Toronto to Calgary, I've only taken one overnight sleeper and that was from Zagreb to Munich over twenty years ago in 2002, only a few years after the end of the Yugoslavian Wars. And I didn't sleep a wink because you're in a enclosed shared cabin without a lock, with people coming and going all night, in a region known for pickpockets and petty thieves - I slept on top of my suitcase. We stopped in Slovenia, where soldiers with assault rifles got on and inspected our papers, with one chap in my cabin being hauled off, never to return. I felt better once the train reached Austria, but still I could not sleep, wondering if my fellow passenger was in jail or dead on a siding somewhere on the Croat/Slovenian border. This was more than ten years before Croatia joined the EU in 2013, and

 

[Allandale25]

Transparency and Trust

Via rail high frequency rail - We intend to build respectful, trusting and collaborative relationships throughout.

hfr-tgf.ca

 

[Admiral Beez]

You can also connect between the Amtrak Wolverine (Chicago-Detroit) and the VIA Windsor-Toronto service in Detroit/Windsor, using the streetcar, Tunnel Bus and/or a taxi, which is awkward but is probably the best way from Toronto to Chicago.

Interesting, where do you cross the border and customs?

Let’s ask ChapGPT. https://chat.openai.com/

Why is there no passenger train between Toronto and Chicago?

As of my last knowledge update in September 2021, there wasn't a direct passenger train service between Toronto and Chicago, and there could be several reasons for this:

1. Infrastructure: The absence of a direct passenger train service could be due to limitations in the existing rail infrastructure. To establish a passenger train route, the railways would need to ensure that the tracks, signals, and other infrastructure meet the necessary safety and operational standards.
2. Regulations and Agreements: International passenger train services involve complex regulations, agreements, and coordination between different countries' railway systems. Negotiating these agreements and ensuring compliance can be a lengthy and challenging process.
3. Economic Viability: The decision to introduce a new passenger train route is often influenced by its potential economic viability. Factors such as projected ridership, ticket prices, and operational costs play a role in determining whether a route would be financially sustainable.
4. Competition and Demand: Other modes of transportation, such as flights and buses, might offer more convenient and competitive options for travel between Toronto and Chicago. If the demand for train travel is perceived to be low compared to these alternatives, railway companies might be less inclined to invest in a new route.
5. Logistics and Customs: International train services require dealing with customs and immigration procedures, which can introduce complexities and potential delays to the travel experience.
6. Political and Bureaucratic Factors: Establishing an international passenger train route involves coordination between multiple government agencies, authorities, and stakeholders. Political and bureaucratic factors can impact the progress and approval of such initiatives.

It's worth noting that transportation landscapes can change over time, and new developments might have occurred since my last update. For the most accurate and up-to-date information, I recommend checking with relevant transportation authorities, railway companies, and official sources regarding any recent changes or plans related to passenger train services between Toronto and Chicago.

 

[Urban Sky]

Interesting, where do you cross the border and customs?

Let’s ask ChapGPT. https://chat.openai.com/

Why is there no passenger train between Toronto and Chicago?

[…]

I somehow struggle to see how the second question relates to the first, but I would assume that the passengers of the Tunnel Bus clear customs at the same point as the cars using that tunnel, i.e. at the Customs facilities located immediately after leaving the tunnel…

 

[reaperexpress]

The problem is the Economics: Sleeper cars cost more to procure and operate (per car-mile) - and have spaces for less passengers which can only be sold once (rather than multiple times) per day.

I think it's important to distinguish between an overnight sleeper train and the long-distance sleeper trains that VIA currently operates.

A long-distance train needs to operate both overnight and throughout the day. This means that the train needs to convert between beds at night and seats during the day. This requires a lot of staff time in the mornings and evenings to convert the comparments back and forth between daytime and nighttime configurations, and it can reduce the space-efficiency of the cabins. It also means that the train will operate through mealtimes such as lunch and supper, which will require more extensive dining, kitchen and/or café facilities, which require coaches that don't directly bring in revenue. They also typically include recreation facilities such as dome, sightseeing and/or lounge cars, since passengers are awake for more than long enough to get very bored.

An overnight train only operates during the night, so beds do not need to be converted to seats, no entertainment facilities are required, and no dining facilities are required. As a result, far fewer staff are required, and consists do not require any non-revenue coaches.

Generic consists for different train service types:

The fact that overnight coaches don't need to convert to a daytime configuration opens up the option of offering some beds in a 'capsule' configuration, which is much more space-efficient than rooms. This configuration also provides an option for a solo traveller to book a private room without needing to book a 2-bed cabin for themselves.

Tour of an ÖBB Nightjet 'mini-cabin' capsule

Mini-cabins, image by Man in Seat 61

Compare the bed density of the Couchette coaches with those mini-cabins to conventional sleeper coaches:
ÖBB Couchette coach: 40 beds per coach (28 mini-cabins, 3 four-bed compartments)
VIA Château coach: 23 beds per coach (8 one-bed cabins, 3 two-bed berths, 3 two-bed cabins, 1 three-bed cabin)
VIA Manor coach: 22 beds per coach (4 one-bed cabins, 3 two-bed berths, 6 two-bed cabins)
ÖBB Sleeper coach: 20 beds per coach (10 two-bed cabins)

Furthermore, overnight trains do not consist entirely of sleeper coaches. They also typically include a couple ordinary second-class coaches, which provide a basic low-cost option comparable to an overnight bus, as well as intercity-style service for shorter segments of the route. In the latter case, a single seat can get sold twice per trip. For example, the same seat could carry a passenger from New York to Albany in the evening, and from Buffalo to Toronto in the morning.

So while overnight trains are indeed much more expensive per seat(bed)-mile than an intercity train, they are much cheaper than a long-distance train.

To achieve the same cost-recovery rate than even the worst day train, you would likely have to sell each bed for more than what a hotel night in Toronto or Montreal would cost, thus eliminating the main attraction of the night train service. I‘m genuinely regretting this, as I would have taken such a service (to commute between my home office and my actual office) more than a dozen times in the last two years…

The higher operating cost per passenger is not in necesarily an issue, because space on an overnight train can be sold at several times the price of a daytime ticket. This is because it provides both accomodation and transport, whereas a daytime train only provides transport.

Take for example my work, which has monthly in-office days where the company pays to bring the entire team together for a working day at the Ottawa office. Currently the out-of-town team members get a train trip to Ottawa the previous evening, stay in a hotel in downtown Ottawa, and return to their city at the end of the workday. As long as a round trip ticket for sleeper acommodation on an overnight train is cheaper than the sum of a daytime round trip ticket and a night in a hotel, it's still cheaper overall than taking a daytime train.

 

[Urban Sky]

I think it's important to distinguish between an overnight sleeper train and the long-distance sleeper trains that VIA currently operates.

A long-distance train needs to operate both overnight and throughout the day. This means that the train needs to convert between beds at night and seats during the day. This requires a lot of staff time in the mornings and evenings to convert the comparments back and forth between daytime and nighttime configurations, and it can reduce the space-efficiency of the cabins. It also means that the train will operate through mealtimes such as lunch and supper, which will require more extensive dining, kitchen and/or café facilities, which require coaches that don't directly bring in revenue. They also typically include recreation facilities such as dome, sightseeing and/or lounge cars, since passengers are awake for more than long enough to get very bored.

An overnight train only operates during the night, so beds do not need to be converted to seats, no entertainment facilities are required, and no dining facilities are required. As a result, far fewer staff are required, and consists do not require any non-revenue coaches.

Generic consists for different train service types:
View attachment 503758

The fact that overnight coaches don't need to convert to a daytime configuration opens up the option of offering some beds in a 'capsule' configuration, which is much more space-efficient than rooms. This configuration also provides an option for a solo traveller to book a private room without needing to book a 2-bed cabin for themselves.

Tour of an ÖBB Nightjet 'mini-cabin' capsule

Mini-cabins, image by Man in Seat 61

For example, ÖBB's new couchette coaches include 28 'mini-cabins' plus 3 four-bed compartments, for a total of 40 beds per coach. In comparison, their conventional sleeper coaches of the same size have 10 two-bed cabins, for 20 beds per coach. VIA rail's 'berth' style seating/beds falls somewhere between these two in terms of space-efficiency.

Furthermore, overnight trains do not consist entirely of sleeper coaches. They also typically include a couple ordinary second-class coaches, which provide a basic low-cost option comparable to an overnight bus, as well as intercity-style service for shorter segments of the route. In the latter case, a single seat get sold twice per trip. For example, the same seat could carry a passenger from New York to Albany in the evening, and from Buffalo to Toronto in the morning.

So while overnight trains are indeed much more expensive per seat(bed)-mile than an intercity train, they are much cheaper than a long-distance train.

The higher operating cost per seat(bed) is not in necesarily an issue, because space on an overnight train can be sold at several times the price of a daytime ticket. This is because it provides both accomodation and transport, whereas a daytime train only provides transport.

Take for example my work, which has monthly in-office days where the company pays to bring the entire team together for a working day at the Ottawa office. Currently the out-of-town team members get a train trip to Ottawa the previous evening, stay in a hotel in downtown Ottawa, and return to their city at the end of the workday. As long as a round trip ticket for sleeper acommodation on an overnight train is cheaper than the sum of a daytime round trip ticket and a night in a hotel, it's still cheaper overall than taking a daytime train.

We‘ve discussed this the question of night trains in the Corridor ad nausea multiple times, most comprehensibly here, when I presented the 2017 report „End of the line?“ conducted on behalf of the Euopean Parliament, which studied extensively the challenges faced by night trains:

Source: Re-post from Post #5291

Is there anything something you‘d like to add to the discussion we‘ve already had back in 2019?

[Edit: slightly modifed to reduce risk of sounding unnecessarily abbrasive and deleted duplicate post.]

 

[reaperexpress]

We‘ve discussed this ad nausea multiple times, most comprehensibly here, when I presented the 2017 report „End of the line?“ conducted on behalf of the Euopean Parliament, which studied extensively the challenged faced by night trains:

View attachment 503794
Source: Re-post from Post #5291

Is there anything you‘d like to add to the discussion we‘ve already had back then?

Sorry I wasn't aware of that discussion 674 pages ago. Scrolling through that discussion, I don't see much talk about the distinction between overnight trains and long distance trains, nor do I see any mention of capsule-style sleeping arrangements. As a result I believe that my post does add value to the discussion, at the very least due to the original illustration I created showing the difference between consist types.

In your linked post from four years ago you noted that the Canadian has a comparable cost-recovery rate to Corridor services. Given that an overnight train between cities 10h apart would be enormously cheaper to operate than that transcontinental land cruise, then couldn't the overnight train also have a similar cost recovery rate?

Since that report came out proclaiming the imminent demise of night trains in Europe, the network of overnight services has not died. In fact, it has grown considerably, in large part thanks to ÖBB, but also via various smaller open-access operators such as European Sleeper.

 

[Urban Sky]

Sorry I wasn't aware of that discussion 674 pages ago. Scrolling through that discussion, I don't see much talk about the distinction between overnight trains and long distance trains, nor do I see any mention of capsule-style sleeping arrangements. As a result I believe that my post does add value to the discussion, at the very least due to the original illustration I created showing the difference between consist types.

My apologies, I didn’t want to imply that your post didn‘t add relevant points, but I wanted to ensure that we don’t need to repeat those discussions we‘ve already had…

In your linked post from four years ago you noted that the Canadian has a comparable cost-recovery rate to Corridor services. Given that an overnight train between cities 10h apart would be enormously cheaper to operate than that transcontinental land cruise, then couldn't the overnight train also have a similar cost recovery rate?

The Canadian is a tourism product which exploits Economies of Scale by aggregating demand to just 2 (or 3) departures per week and its passengers are most likely to have chosen the ride over a cruise ship, which means it’s attracting new passengers with a high willingness to pay. This aggregation is unfortunately not an option for a Corridor night train and its passengers are most likely to have used a day train otherwise (like in your example from your work place), meaning that they would mostly shift existing rather than generate new demand.

Since that report came out proclaiming the imminent demise of night trains in Europe, the network of overnight services has not died. In fact, it has grown considerably, in large part thanks to ÖBB, but also via various smaller open-access operators such as European Sleeper.

Indeed, some of the report‘s predictions might not have materialized, but its description of the challenges are still very pertinent.

But in any case, there is no fleet of Sleeper cars currently available and I struggle to see how sleeper facilities could possibly fit into VIA‘s new Corridor fleet consisting of 32 identical Siemens trainsets with five Venture cars hauled by a Charger locomotive…

 

[TerryJohnson]

There are creative ways around the "one journey per day" problem, such as lie-flat beds or convertible seating like the "butterfly seat" which can be sold as two seats or one bed. On routes of 8-9 hours daytime and slightly longer at night, the same equipment could be cycled, or 60-70% or the equipment with only the full-sleeper portion of the consist being idled during the day. Also, don't completely discount the "nap/privacy" market who might buy a cabin on a long daytime trip and save the hassle of splitting the consists.

 

[Urban Sky]

There are creative ways around the "one journey per day" problem, such as lie-flat beds or convertible seating like the "butterfly seat" which can be sold as two seats or one bed. On routes of 8-9 hours daytime and slightly longer at night, the same equipment could be cycled, or 60-70% or the equipment with only the full-sleeper portion of the consist being idled during the day. Also, don't completely discount the "nap/privacy" market who might buy a cabin on a long daytime trip and save the hassle of splitting the consists.

My point was that unless you retrofit every single of the 32 trainsets of the new Siemens fleet with Sleeper facilities, you‘ll end up with two subfleets, which can’t be used interchangeably, which drastically reduces the operational flexibility and thus the Economies of Scale which could be exploited by operating a single, standardized fleet…

 

[Northern Light]

Without arguing beyond my level of expertise, I wish to contribute an experience to the discussion, the thought of which popped into my head due to @TerryJohnson 's post above.

Many eons ago, on my first trip Europe, as many university students do, I and a friend got the youth Eurorail pass.

We carefully planned our trip to incorporate sleepers where possible to avoid hotel or hostelling costs and maximize distance coverage.

Avoiding the issue of how large the market segment may be for differing destination pairs/trips..........

I recall the sleeping arrangement on at least one of the trains we took, involved a 4-bed cabin, where the lower beds were the base of bench seats, the upper beds (bunk-style) folded down and were the back rests for the benches.

Train staff did not change the position of these from bench/seat to bed, passengers did.

I believe these are most commonly billed as 'couchettes'

This page has something similar to what I rode in:

European sleepers & couchettes explained

All you need to know about travelling on a European overnight train in a sleeping-car or couchette

www.seat61.com

Providing one could achieve a high occupancy rate, the ticket pricing (described on the site) would seem to be economical and set a fairly easy mark for profitability.

 

[Northern Light]

My point was that unless you retrofit every single of the 32 trainsets of the new Siemens fleet with Sleeper facilities, you‘ll end up with two subfleets, which can’t be used interchangeably, which drastically reduces the operational flexibility and thus the Economies of Scale which could be exploited by operating a single, standardized fleet…

A retrofit should make sense to no one.

But if a train oriented to the type of trip described were added to the fleet, from the same manufacturer, with the same locos (maximizing interchangeable parts) with a fleet right-sized to the market potential (if that exists), I'm not sure I see that as the deal breaker here.

What I'm unclear on is if the market size is there. Which is to say, I think doing this to being in a single sleeper train in the corridor, and then have 2 sets that cycle (you would need one spare) would as you note be unreasonably expensive, I think, for the small niche in the market.

But is there more than one City pair within the corridor that might justify a night train of this type? Are there any other City pairs elsewhere in the country, or cross-border that would make sense? I don't know the answer to that. Obviously, on the latter you would prefer to cross any border when passengers are typically awake, unless pre-clearance was used.

 

[TerryJohnson]

A retrofit should make sense to no one.

But if a train oriented to the type of trip described were added to the fleet, from the same manufacturer, with the same locos (maximizing interchangeable parts) with a fleet right-sized to the market potential (if that exists), I'm not sure I see that as the deal breaker here.

What I'm unclear on is if the market size is there. Which is to say, I think doing this to being in a single sleeper train in the corridor, and then have 2 sets that cycle (you would need one spare) would as you note be unreasonably expensive, I think, for the small niche in the market.

But is there more than one City pair within the corridor that might justify a night train of this type? Are there any other City pairs elsewhere in the country, or cross-border that would make sense? I don't know the answer to that. Obviously, on the latter you would prefer to cross any border when passengers are typically awake, unless pre-clearance was used.

The VIA Venture fleet is for corridor daytime service, and it is too late the change the Airo order too, at least for the first 82 trains.
(Although I really hope the Northlander order has specified a different seat because the economy seats on the VIA Ventures do not really recline far enough for overnight travel in them to be attractive.)
My thinking was that this would require a fleet provisioned for for cross-border / single-night services. That could either be a variant of the Venture/Airo family, using the Viewliners once the Airos and a new long-distance fleet displace them from other duties, or a version of the new long-distance fleets. There are a lot of variables between now and new LD fleets arriving, but I was simply suggesting that future procurement and redeployment decisions shouldn't always frame night train equipment as being unique or not being useable in daytime. We can challenge suppliers and be creative with legacy equipment to improve utilization.
That said, the use of unmodified daytime IC equipment for "fake night trains" in Europe is fast becoming notorious.