Glen
Senior Member
Toronto has many good plans. What it is missing is a reality that will see them come to fruition.
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Vaughan Tomorrow Official Plan
- Thread starter savevp
- Start date
Toronto has many good plans. What it is missing is a reality that will see them come to fruition.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Glen:
I am not talking about the presence or absence of Avenue plans per se - but densification along the Avenues as a rebuttal to the statement that there is nothing beyond the downtown core or NYCC. As to what you've said - it's a truism that applies to ALL cities.
AoD
I am not talking about the presence or absence of Avenue plans per se - but densification along the Avenues as a rebuttal to the statement that there is nothing beyond the downtown core or NYCC. As to what you've said - it's a truism that applies to ALL cities.
AoD
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savevp
Active Member
That is true, and could be seen as dissapointing. But, you must consider that Vaughan has very large employment areas, which must have low density. It is a shame but they had to go somewhere and Vaughan stepped up to the plate. Understandably, it is hard to build massive condo developments when you look out at an industial park every day.
Yes, it is very good to see Vaughan doing something other than sprawl. By the way, I wrote a letter to Vaughan council commending them on their plans and opposing sprawl, and I would reccomend that anybody else in Vaughan do so as well.
Chuck
Senior Member
Opposing sprawl? In proposing to develop several thousand acres along the 400 near the King Township boundary, Vaughan is taking the unprecedented step of asking the province to undo the Oak Ridges Moraine conservation act, even though numerous compromises were already made in finalizing the boundary 10 years ago.
Not to mention the thousands more acres of sprawl that will occur as Vaughan takes the extent of development from where it falls now north toward the actual urban boundary several kilometres to the north.
hbl33
Active Member
I visited various architectural firms (dTAH, Bortolotto, Diamond & Schmitt, to name few) today for Doors Open T.O. today, and I can make a response to your statement [especially the last one].
About VMC, MCC and RHC; granted, they are not as close to 10% of the entire municipality area. But for rest of the communities in Sauga, Brampton, or in fact, all Ontario municipalities, once the master plans proceed as planned I think we need no complaints here (and my "trolling comment" about Waterfront can be put to rest). As glen said "a missing thing is a reality to be made into fruition", only time tells. And I do hope that several plannings are underway (even if I don't know well) outside intensification areas. And yes, the total percentage of preferred transportation is still favours the automobiles, but look to the brighter side, Sauga's public transportation and other non-automobile modes have increased too (source: as latest as 2006)!
And as for your point about pedestrians and cyclists in MCC, it sounds to me that you are ignoring the growth of Mississauga (apologized in case you took this as offence). Compared to my arrival in Canada in '98, major things changed. Back in those times, it was no better than a wasteland. Now, I see no less than a fifth of peds (approx.) you'd see in Bloor West Village. That's a major remarkable change, and according to my observation! Never mind that I still jaywalk for comfort and convenience around busy B'hamthorpe and Hurontario. The more I see the Confederation, Duke of York and Rathburn, the more it feels closer to "more developed" Central Etobicoke, STC and even Bayview/Sheppard!
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
*note: this is not about bashing Sauga - just happens MCC is the area I know best in comparison to VCC and Markham*
What does visiting any of those said architecture firms has anything to do with responding to what I have said, exactly?
Really? Like Cornell or the various NU developments (at best) perhaps? Or how about master planned developments such as Erin Mills? You make master planning sounded like some magical tool that leads to urban utopia - sorry, historically the record is rather mixed. And let's not even get me started about how many elements of say the Erin Mills plan that haven't been followed through.
And ridership on MT has just dropped in the neighbourhood of 2M last year...
No offense to you, but I have lived in Mississauga since 92 and is still living there - and it will be a challenge to find even 1/10th the number of pedestrians in Bloor West Village even on a good day (like this afternoon) in MCC - in spite of the dramatic increase in residential population. I use MT daily, and workout at the Sauga Y regularly, I *know* the usual amount of pedestrians in the MCC area, believe me.
And what do you mean by "more developed", exactly? And why limit yourself to these rather third rate examples of urban development? If anything one should be using the Port Credit and hell, even the Streetsville model instead.
AoD
What does visiting any of those said architecture firms has anything to do with responding to what I have said, exactly?
Really? Like Cornell or the various NU developments (at best) perhaps? Or how about master planned developments such as Erin Mills? You make master planning sounded like some magical tool that leads to urban utopia - sorry, historically the record is rather mixed. And let's not even get me started about how many elements of say the Erin Mills plan that haven't been followed through.
And ridership on MT has just dropped in the neighbourhood of 2M last year...
No offense to you, but I have lived in Mississauga since 92 and is still living there - and it will be a challenge to find even 1/10th the number of pedestrians in Bloor West Village even on a good day (like this afternoon) in MCC - in spite of the dramatic increase in residential population. I use MT daily, and workout at the Sauga Y regularly, I *know* the usual amount of pedestrians in the MCC area, believe me.
And what do you mean by "more developed", exactly? And why limit yourself to these rather third rate examples of urban development? If anything one should be using the Port Credit and hell, even the Streetsville model instead.
AoD
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taal
Senior Member
Meh this is silly ... at the end of the day it's good a *plan* is being put in place in Vaughan, just as it's good there's a plan for MCC and the like (same goes for the portlands). Why are we comparing the different areas here, are they competing against each other? For business sure (and we know who's losing that battle 
... Toronto is, just to be clear), but in terms of anything else (residence that is) no, not really (though you can argue a loss of business will contribute to this but that's another matter) - at the end of the day, 30 years from now, I fairly confident people who want to live downtown / Y&E and the like will stall want to live in those locations, and people who want to live in MCC will still live there, and the multitude greater amount of the general public who want to live in houses with yards will live throughout the GTA at these exist everywhere.
... Toronto is, just to be clear), but in terms of anything else (residence that is) no, not really (though you can argue a loss of business will contribute to this but that's another matter) - at the end of the day, 30 years from now, I fairly confident people who want to live downtown / Y&E and the like will stall want to live in those locations, and people who want to live in MCC will still live there, and the multitude greater amount of the general public who want to live in houses with yards will live throughout the GTA at these exist everywhere.
hbl33
Active Member
My errors for such a silly statement (I even found that it was erratic to say before posting it)... It's a extreme long story to tell...
I never said that today's master plans are the "holy grail of urban development". Then again, following the past consequences of such developments, running away from it rather than resolving the issue is to me, a more threshold to my ears. A defeat to the purpose of urban planning. Taking risk of urban planning is (even if VMC has known and potential flaws), at least, a next step.
And Erin Mills? Please give me your insights about that area (can you at least elaborate on that for bit since you are familiar with the area [or the entire city as a whole])?
And were there any other years reported the similar declining ridership besides last year?
I can't really question people's observations... But at the same time, do you have any report? I can only believe it if I was in someone else's shoes...
And none as come as close to early Toronto's early models (1800's~pre-1940's)... Although PC and Streetville is apparently successful in some degrees, in just how what criteria does it reach to be proclaimed as a "divine plan??" What does it must have to be perfectly a good "community"? Copy & paste Streetsville all over the GTA? And just what you mean about "third-rate" example of urban development? You mean the current master plan of 905 municipalities are awful as the suburban sprawl in GTA? Another form of "sprawl" masquerading as "sustainable planning?"
Moderator (AoD), I am not bashing, insulting or demeaning your stance; I am interested to hear just what to you, is really a better alternative to VMC or similar projects across GTA. I still have decades before I really know urbanization. And please don't take any of my replies above as an attack. But really, just because my observation is slight a bit off (at best), must this be taken to the extreme-st point?
Meh this is silly ... at the end of the day it's good a *plan* is being put in place in Vaughan, just as it's good there's a plan for MCC and the like (same goes for the portlands). Why are we comparing the different areas here, are they competing against each other? For business sure (and we know who's losing that battle
Then again, I think there has to be synergy between the real urban area to suburban areas... There's too many issues yet to be resolved in this case.
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
hbl33:
It isn't - it should never be a holy grail. Of course you needed to start somewhere but all I am saying is it isn't the 10% of these municipalities with densification schemes that is the problem - it's the 90% that's left. Besides, as I will point out later, there are also problems with these plans in themselves; areas that should be planned isn't, and area that shouldn't be overplanned oftentimes are.
Just as an example - the original Erin Mills Master Plan envisions a significantly greater amount of apartment buildings. That aspect, other than a small cluster near South Common, never materialized - and it has an impact on the mix of socioeconomic classes in the area.
But that's the thing, it's precisely a better model because the evolution is more organic and rooted in planning principles (often unspoken) that had been proven successful time and again in other jurisdictions. One can argue PC should be the model used around all transit hubs, for example.
And yes, I do argue that STC, MCC, VCC, etc are all fairly poor examples of urban development - it is good in the sense that it isn't sprawl, but beyond that, one has to question whether these plans will lead to real urban outcomes. A sea of condos on podiums with a mall beside it doesn't necessarily cut it.
And this is the issue - the suburban attempt to cordon off areas to be transformed to the "urban" is producing a rather ersatz result so far that points to it being neither...and at the same time, the vast majority of the suburbs that can move towards an urban model is being ignored, basically.
Good point, this isn't about personal attacks. As to what I consider as good alternatives - I know most suburban municipalities would absolutely loath this - but one salient aspect that's missing in these grand plans is socioeconomic in nature - none had paid any attention to ensuring there is serious mix of incomes in the area. One also have to question the nature of the built form and spread of density within the municipality and whether it is a good idea or not - oftentimes, you feel like there is the great cluster of density that is completely detached from the rest of the city, without any continuity.
AoD
It isn't - it should never be a holy grail. Of course you needed to start somewhere but all I am saying is it isn't the 10% of these municipalities with densification schemes that is the problem - it's the 90% that's left. Besides, as I will point out later, there are also problems with these plans in themselves; areas that should be planned isn't, and area that shouldn't be overplanned oftentimes are.
Just as an example - the original Erin Mills Master Plan envisions a significantly greater amount of apartment buildings. That aspect, other than a small cluster near South Common, never materialized - and it has an impact on the mix of socioeconomic classes in the area.
But that's the thing, it's precisely a better model because the evolution is more organic and rooted in planning principles (often unspoken) that had been proven successful time and again in other jurisdictions. One can argue PC should be the model used around all transit hubs, for example.
And yes, I do argue that STC, MCC, VCC, etc are all fairly poor examples of urban development - it is good in the sense that it isn't sprawl, but beyond that, one has to question whether these plans will lead to real urban outcomes. A sea of condos on podiums with a mall beside it doesn't necessarily cut it.
And this is the issue - the suburban attempt to cordon off areas to be transformed to the "urban" is producing a rather ersatz result so far that points to it being neither...and at the same time, the vast majority of the suburbs that can move towards an urban model is being ignored, basically.
Good point, this isn't about personal attacks. As to what I consider as good alternatives - I know most suburban municipalities would absolutely loath this - but one salient aspect that's missing in these grand plans is socioeconomic in nature - none had paid any attention to ensuring there is serious mix of incomes in the area. One also have to question the nature of the built form and spread of density within the municipality and whether it is a good idea or not - oftentimes, you feel like there is the great cluster of density that is completely detached from the rest of the city, without any continuity.
AoD
adma
Superstar
You have to remember, too, that the "street life" you find in places like Mississauga can in large part be a demographic accident; because you don't exactly see WASPy types as part of it (except in old Port Credit/Streetsville).
Similarly in LA, there's an elevated "street life" mean that comes with elevated Latin demographic quotients.
Similarly in LA, there's an elevated "street life" mean that comes with elevated Latin demographic quotients.