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US journo claims Bhutto was killed on Cheney’s orders

For the record, though I am distrustful of the US Government in general (hope Obama proves me wrong!), I'm not a 9/11 Truther. However this is a free-thinking society and I respect those willing to question the motives of our appointed leaders.

There could be something sinister behind the Bush family's 30 some odd years relationship with the bin Ladens, their financial dealings in the oil trade (Arbusto/Harken Energy Corporation & BCCI), Reagan Era money laundering intended for clandestine CIA activities ranging from financial support of the Afghan mujahedin to paying intermediaries in the Iran-Contra affair (i.e. the US backing authoritarian dictatorships in a conflict against a Communist regime just because it wasn't Communist itself), hike in US defence spending to benefit Osama's family's Mid East interests, George HW Bush's dealings with defense contractors The Carlyle Group, in turn Bush Jr's with Haliburton, etc. Or maybe there isn't. We just don't know and likely never will.

But not being afraid to ask these tough, difficult questions of our gov'ts doesn't mean that all the Truthers "lack brain cells" as you put it; or are deserving of our ridicule when the "Official" account leaves in its wake still so many unanswered queries.

I don't think Truthers lack brain cells because they ask difficult questions; they lack brain cells because they continue to spout the same tired arguments (e.g., melting point of steel, airlplane profile lacking in the Pentagon debris, downward implosion) that have been fully debunked already. Nothing wrong with questioning what governments do; it's just an issue when you continue to raise the same questions after getting the answers. While the Bush family's relationship with the Bin Ladens is problematic, it hardly rates important enough to bring down the twin towers and the resulting microscopic attention paid to the event in order to continue, strengthen or protect the relationship.
 
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... or are deserving of our ridicule when the "Official" account leaves in its wake still so many unanswered queries.

Do you honestly think there are more 'unanswered queries' in the 'official' account than all the other alternative theories? Occam's razor comes to mind.

Dealing specifically with Bush/Cheney involvement, how do those theories account for the fact that planning and preparations for Sept 11 were underway months before Bush was ever elected President?

Was it all some big conspiracy where Bush arranged with Bin Laden to attack the US while he was governor of Texas, while Cheney rigged the Supreme Court so that they could award the presidency to Bush (after someone else presumably ensured that the election came down to a single very tightly contested state which would allow the Supreme Court to even get involved), so that when Bin Laden attacked once Bush was in power, he could then have an excuse for invading Afghanistan, removing Bin Laden's patrons in the Taliban and chasing Bin Laden himself out of his comfortable setup and into the mountains of the Pakistani border region?
 
As somebody who works in the security and intelligence community I would challenge that assertion. There's a good book out called, "How to break a terrorist." The authors are CT interrogators and they show you that traditional agressive interrogation (sans torture) does work.

Aggressive interrogation (sans torture) works in many or most cases - but not all. All interrogation requires having something to be able to validate the information that you are getting (be it past performance of interrogation against that individual, intelligence). In most cases torture is counter-productive, but I do agree with you that it is a matter of principals (which is why I would not make it part of standard interrogations).

If you know A, E, F. The person tells you A, B, E, F - without knowing what information you have - you can be pretty sure that B is likely true. If you lack the intelligence in the first place, then anything that comes out of an individual that has reached a level of panic..... is likely just an attempt to make that person stop the stress leading to panic.

Now, under some international definitions anything that induces panic (mental or otherwise) would also be considered torture.

I still think the policy of rendition is worse since we are just playing political games to cover the politicians asses - and there is no accountability on interrogation methods (policy introduced by Bill Clinton).
 
I don't think Truthers lack brain cells because they ask difficult questions; they lack brain cells because they continue to spout the same tired arguments (e.g., melting point of steel, airlplane profile lacking in the Pentagon debris, downward implosion) that have been fully debunked already. Nothing wrong with questioning what governments do; it's just an issue when you continue to raise the same questions after getting the answers. While the Bush family's relationship with the Bin Ladens is problematic, it hardly rates important enough to bring down the twin towers and the resulting microscopic attention paid to the event in order to continue, strengthen or protect the relationship.

Do you honestly think there are more 'unanswered queries' in the 'official' account than all the other alternative theories? Occam's razor comes to mind.

Dealing specifically with Bush/Cheney involvement, how do those theories account for the fact that planning and preparations for Sept 11 were underway months before Bush was ever elected President?

Was it all some big conspiracy where Bush arranged with Bin Laden to attack the US while he was governor of Texas, while Cheney rigged the Supreme Court so that they could award the presidency to Bush (after someone else presumably ensured that the election came down to a single very tightly contested state which would allow the Supreme Court to even get involved), so that when Bin Laden attacked once Bush was in power, he could then have an excuse for invading Afghanistan, removing Bin Laden's patrons in the Taliban and chasing Bin Laden himself out of his comfortable setup and into the mountains of the Pakistani border region?

You both are right. It's a conspiracy theory, emphasis on theory. If WOD's master plan was to seize control of Iraq's oilsands and topple Saddam's authoritarian grip on the region, then it would look better in the world's eyes if it were carried out under the guise of retaliating against an attack on the world's only democratic, pluralist superpower, no? There also was a racial/faith-based component involved too, where essentially Arab Mulsims attacking a "white" capitalist Christendom would embroil the many millions of the conservative right-wing of Middle America, which of course it did. So with one of their own at the helm, there was carte blanche free reign to enact some terror of our own whereby 200 Iraqi civilians had to die for every one (1) person that perished in the September 11 terrorist attacks. That's not to say the same outcome would not have happened were a Democrat elected president instead.

I personally do not question how the Twin Towers were destroyed. But it's highly plausible to assume that there were larger sociocultural mechanisms afoot that instigated the entire incident. We can start with the West's interventionist foreign policies that superceed the traditional Rule of Law tolerated in Muslim autocratic societies. Our backing of corrupt regimes to take out our adversaries during the Cold War, resulting in the deaths of millions. Xenophobia of Islamic cultural norms has further strained the West's cultural/socail/economic linkages with the region and as our oil dependency grew it mattered not to us what the Arab world did so long as they were willing to trade that commodity with us. As such when things went wrong in the Middle East it could always be traced back to foreign intervention either in the forms of arms dealings, militia backing, opium trading or empowering totalitarian clerics by giving them an insurmountable amount of money from the oil trade with which to be able to buy their job security to lead.

Where Bush factors into all this is uncertain and I won't claim to know what his personal involvement was prior to 9/11. However the CIA did have ample warning of an imminent attack from spring of 2001, several months before the attacks. You'd think that they'd inform the President of this. And the "War on Terror" has been a self-serving profiteering cash-cow for Bush-partnershiped companies such as Arbusto/Harken and the Carlyle Group, as well Haliburton and more than 150 U.S. companies that were awarded contracts for post-war work totaling more than $50 billion USD. If this was really about liberating the Iraqi people why all the cronyism, when able-bodied civilians are in desperate need of money and oppurtunities to improve their labour skills? Sometimes you really have to stop and wonder just how much ideologically different or superior our own leaders are from the "big-bad" Commie Fascists afterall.
 
Back on topic....truther stuff aside, does anybody buy that Cheney whacked Bhutto?

Well that's precisely what I was trying to do with my post, steering things back onto a rational tangent by analyzing West/Middle East relations and offering an assessment of its overarching sociopolitical themes. So it's related to the thread topic.

That question btw is literally rhetorical because everyone answers to someone and we just don't know for certain how far this stuff actually traces back. Hence my advice: sometimes it's best to just let go of some of those issues which we can't prove or resolve ourselves, those that gov'ts don't want leaking out to the public's attention.
 

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