Union Station: Northwest PATH Expansion

[DSC]

FYI. the PATH connection to the Citi building (123 Front). There are no plans to extend it to any other building.

151 Front (East Side Mario's) is actually the most expensive rent in all of Toronto. It's the main data centre/interconnect hub for all of Canada (proximity is important when you are transferring terabytes of data even with fibre).

They are planning to expand this as I understand by cantilevering a new building over the old so that it will not disrupt the current users. It will be connected via the Skywalk to Union, not via the Citi building due to this planned design.

From 151 Front (Simcoe side of the building) there is an ability for the PATH to continue north to the NE corner of Simcoe/Front where there is 2 or 3 towers planned (currently a parking lot). From there it will go to the NW corner of Simcoe/Front to connect to the existing PATH in Simcoe Place. (at least that's what I understand).

Good to hear, I must say I wish there was a connection under Front Street to connect the CBC building with the convention centre. I guess nobody want to pay for it!

 

[Jonny5]

FYI. the PATH connection to the Citi building (123 Front). There are no plans to extend it to any other building.

151 Front (East Side Mario's) is actually the most expensive rent in all of Toronto. It's the main data centre/interconnect hub for all of Canada (proximity is important when you are transferring terabytes of data even with fibre).

There are a lot of data centres in Canada. There are even a lot in downtown Toronto, and several are muti-floor operations located in the largest office buildings, but you would never know they were there, as they don't have signs or advertise for security. None individually are a critical hub for "all of Canada". The largest data centre is actually located in Brampton on Williams Parkway.

 

[muller877]

There are a lot of data centres in Canada. There are even a lot in downtown Toronto, and several are muti-floor operations located in the largest office buildings, but you would never know they were there, as they don't have signs or advertise for security. None individually are a critical hub for "all of Canada". The largest data centre is actually located in Brampton on Williams Parkway.

TorIX was the initial location of the telegraph hub and fibre optics have used the rail corridors to make the location very important. It is now the 15th largest internet exchange in the world. There is suppose to be redundancy and there is. But handled on a North American wide basis and Canada would be relying on Chicago and NY for internet exchanges (Montreal for example is 1/10 the size of Toront0)

151 Front rents for about $60/sq ft and is sold out while AAA rents are about $25-30. To put that in perspective a normal building here would rent for $90 million / year. 151 Front can rent for almost $190 million/year

There are data centres and then there is 151 Front. If you look at the adds for the new Parliament St data centre....the main selling point is dark fibre directly from 151 front. All the Telco's in Canada reside at 151 Front. You connecting to this webpage it is almost a certainty the data went through 151 Front if you live in Ontario.

 

[TOareaFan]

151 Front rents for about $60/sq ft and is sold out while AAA rents are about $25-30. To put that in perspective a normal building here would rent for $90 million / year. 151 Front can rent for almost $190 million/year

Your numbers are not wrong.....but they have to have some context added. The typical tenant at that building is renting a "wire closet" and the amount of space they are renting is very small....the rents (as I recall) are not even stated on a psf basis they are just "$X/year" and when people compare the income they convert it to psf. Comparing the space in that building to a typical/"normal" office building is a bit akin to comparing kiosk rents at a shopping mall to regular space rents....they really operate in a different realm.

It is a long time since I looked at the rent roll at 151 Front but I think, also, the rents are "gross" and there are no additional CAMT charges (could be off on that...but that is my recollection)....if that is correct, the comparison to $25-$30 psf figures in typical buildings is a bit skewed also.

 

[Jonny5]

There are data centres and then there is 151 Front. If you look at the adds for the new Parliament St data centre....the main selling point is dark fibre directly from 151 front. All the Telco's in Canada reside at 151 Front. You connecting to this webpage it is almost a certainty the data went through 151 Front if you live in Ontario.

If "there are data centres, and then there's '151 Front'" why did I see a tacky, giant banner mounted on the side of the building today announcing their 'discount rates' and how they will 'match competitors'. That isn't the act of a market leader with a definitive advantage. It actually smacks of desperation.

I am thinking that at one time this was a very important data centre, perhaps a first downtown with mass capacity, in a time when big banks actually needed mass capacity in immediate vicinity because they did everything downtown. But then the market changed dramatically. Data use has decentralized., and the advantages of an extremely expensive data centre have been rendered redundant.

It may now be a white elephant, which is why they are resorting to No Frills grocery store flyer advertising. The stories of expansion of 151 Front have been around since I came to Toronto in 2005. 10 years later they have not established a real plan to expand at all.

My guess is this data centre has actually become redundant, and that it's destiny is to be demolished in a few years, and replaced due to lack of revenue to compensate for the opportunity cost.

 

[muller877]

If "there are data centres, and then there's '151 Front'" why did I see a tacky, giant banner mounted on the side of the building today announcing their 'discount rates' and how they will 'match competitors'. That isn't the act of a market leader with a definitive advantage. It actually smacks of desperation.

I am thinking that at one time this was a very important data centre, perhaps a first downtown with mass capacity, in a time when big banks actually needed mass capacity in immediate vicinity because they did everything downtown. But then the market changed dramatically. Data use has decentralized., and the advantages of an extremely expensive data centre have been rendered redundant.

It may now be a white elephant, which is why they are resorting to No Frills grocery store flyer advertising. The stories of expansion of 151 Front have been around since I came to Toronto in 2005. 10 years later they have not established a real plan to expand at all.

My guess is this data centre has actually become redundant, and that it's destiny is to be demolished in a few years, and replaced due to lack of revenue to compensate for the opportunity cost.

Don't focus on the data centre side of 151 Front. You are right...it can be anywhere and are rented by the rack. TorIX is what is important. It allows your ISP to connect to each other and the web. Without TorIX at 151 Front all the traffic would have to go to NY or Chicago. This would increase latency and transit cost. Google, Microsoft, Akamai, etc all go to TorIX.

Most ISP's don't just rent a rack for this. They require enough space they need their own room. I was lucky enough to visit here with a buddy of mine...very fascinating.

 

[Jonny5]

New wayfinding was installed this morning on the promenade level right outside the leather shop bypass. I will try ad grab some pictures on next visit. Looks like a big improvement over the old stuff. Less logos, cleaner typeface, and finally FINALLY somebody decided to put an airplane symbol beside the UP logo.

Also, spoke with a very kind engineer (name Richard if I got that correctly) on my way through today. He confirmed that shotcreteing is almost complete on the retaining wall under the leather shop bypass and the columns in this area (steel square, x3) have been cut.

They still identify the York/University/Front tunnel as a part of The Path for some reason. It was like a literal tourist trap over March Break. Every time I passed through some people were wandering around asking "Is this the way to the Eaton Cente?" or "Where is the subway?"

 

[tnarduzzi]

They still identify the York/University/Front tunnel as a part of The Path for some reason. It was like a literal tourist trap over March Break. Every time I passed through some people were wandering around asking "Is this the way to the Eaton Cente?" or "Where is the subway?"

This tunnel technically is part of the PATH system. Although I do see your point. Perhaps the City should be looking at installing PATH system maps with a clear 'YOU ARE HERE' in the York/University/Front tunnel.

Sidenote: this situation will improve once phase 2 of the York PATH connection is completed, it is planned to continue North along York until Queen.

 

[Jonny5]

This tunnel technically is part of the PATH system. Although I do see your point. Perhaps the City should be looking at installing PATH system maps with a clear 'YOU ARE HERE' in the York/University/Front tunnel.

Sidenote: this situation will improve once phase 2 of the York PATH connection is completed, it is planned to continue North along York until Queen.

There is such a map, but it's at the opposite side from Union, where people are already lost.

The matter of it's incorporation into the 'official' Path is a concern only to some dunse in City Hall who doesn't think before acting. "The situation" can be corrected today by removing directional signs across the entire York concourse that indicate this is the one and only entrance to the Path.

 

[TOareaFan]

This tunnel technically is part of the PATH system. Although I do see your point. Perhaps the City should be looking at installing PATH system maps with a clear 'YOU ARE HERE' in the York/University/Front tunnel.

Sidenote: this situation will improve once phase 2 of the York PATH connection is completed, it is planned to continue North along York until Queen.

only needs to go to Wellington though to join the rest of the path that already goes to Queen

 

[Jonny5]

There is such a map, but it's at the opposite side from Union, where people are already lost.

The matter of it's incorporation into the 'official' Path is a concern only to some dunse in City Hall who doesn't think before acting. "The situation" can be corrected today by removing directional signs across the entire York concourse that indicate this is the one and only entrance to the Path.

This is what I mean about signs. Leaving the York concourse to the north you see this big sign which tells you the Path is to the left. I bet 100% of people who need help finding the Path actually should be turning right at that junction.

 

[Jonny5]

only needs to go to Wellington though to join the rest of the path that already goes to Queen

I have heard, maybe here, the owners of the HSBC building do not want the connection since it would turn their building into high traffic free way for access to Union, and it's not really designed to accommodate that. They don't want the hassle of hundreds of people walking up and down their stairs, potentially getting injured, providing security, helping lost people, etc...

 

[TOareaFan]

I have heard, maybe here, the owners of the HSBC building do not want the connection since it would turn their building into high traffic free way for access to Union, and it's not really designed to accommodate that. They don't want the hassle of hundreds of people walking up and down their stairs, potentially getting injured, providing security, helping lost people, etc...

someone should remind them that while there are slightly increased obligations from being a fully path accessible building...they are more than offset by the increased rent you can charge your tenants (particularly your food court tenants).

 

[Jonny5]

Food court is an interesting point as that building's is small and dated, with a lower end selection. Perhaps what they fear is it also linking east to the TD Centre which blows theirs away.

 

[TOareaFan]

Food court is an interesting point as that building's is small and dated, with a lower end selection. Perhaps what they fear is it also linking east to the TD Centre which blows theirs away.

poor/limited access brings poor/limited number of customers which attracts poor/limited demand from food retailers which brings poor/limited rents.....you know what fixes that? improving the access to more people.