Ukraine's Orange Sunset

[LAz]

So, who is happy that the Orange guys in Ukraine seem to be on its way out?

 

[urbandreamer]

No more screwdrivers? I prefer my vodka straight.

 

[andrewmp]

Clearly the old ways of mass corruption, poverty and curtailing of human rights are the way to go

 

[GenerationW]

It's going to be hard for any ex-Soviet republic to break too far away from Russia's orbit.

 

[LAz]

It's going to be hard for any ex-Soviet republic to break too far away from Russia's orbit.

I'm not sure if that is a fair thing to say. Who in the former soviet union is really in their "orbit", being controlled by them and whatnot? Okay, perhaps those disputed breakaway regions. But actual countries? I don't think so.
Russia can't have its was with Belarus or Kazakhstan. Those two are quite independent and different.



Put it in this perspective - being in the EU's orbit, or to be precise, being an EU colony like Bulgaria or Romania are. Those places are colonies. Everything there has been bought by foreigners. Remember that good ol' article about villages in Romania - they're dying very fast, thanks to Western companies comming in and turning them into mass agro/industrial stuff - ex: wine field.
Would like to see Ukraine as an EU colony? I would not.

 

[andrewmp]

Ahh the old standard Russophile speaking points

I'm not sure if that is a fair thing to say. Who in the former soviet union is really in their "orbit", being controlled by them and whatnot? Okay, perhaps those disputed breakaway regions. But actual countries? I don't think so.
Russia can't have its was with Belarus or Kazakhstan. Those two are quite independent and different.

The Russia-dominated Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) is the new USSR where it has many ex-Soviet countries under its thumb under the guise of 'military protection'

Put it in this perspective - being in the EU's orbit, or to be precise, being an EU colony like Bulgaria or Romania are. Those places are colonies. Everything there has been bought by foreigners. Remember that good ol' article about villages in Romania - they're dying very fast, thanks to Western companies comming in and turning them into mass agro/industrial stuff - ex: wine field.

The boogeyman foreigner, always a favourite! The EU has given these countries' citizens opportunities to work, live and travel thereby raising their standard of living. Perhaps foreigners do get to purchase ownership, but they bring in advancement and far more opportunities than the old oligarchs of the Communist era, that's for sure.

Would like to see Ukraine as an EU colony? I would not.

Why exactly? Because some despot told you to!

 

[LAz]

I do not see the CSTO as being significant. At any rate, Ukraine does not have plans to join it regardless of who becomes president. Countries in the CSTO have gone against Russian desires big time. If Russia can't pressure Belarus into recognizing Abkhazia and Ossetia, then what the hell are we talking about?


I do not see the EU as giving these countries much opportunity. We know for a fact that technology transfer remains at near zero levels. Why the hell is this a benefit, to not gain technology? Eastern Europe has experienced a brain drain thanks to joining the EU. About a million people have left Bulgaria. That's huge. Hence, your advancement is not really there. When the country can not do anything for itself, it's basically on its way to being a failed state, or, a colony.
The oligarchs arose AFTER the communist era. They are a vivid example and reason as to why many people in eastern europe are sick of this free market capitalism that has put them into poverty.

 

[andrewmp]

Just because you don't see these things happening doesn't mean they aren't, it's not really that you don't see these - you're told they're not happening, but they are!

Economy of Romania

Romania is a middle income European Union member economy of Central-Eastern Europe.[8] It has been referred as a "Tiger" due to its high growth rates and rapid development.[9] Until 2009, Romanian economic growth was among EU’s fastest.[10]

Economy of Bulgaria

As of 2007 the economy is growing at a steady pace of about 6% a year with budget surpluses [2] and shaky inflation. Future prospects are tied to the country's increasingly important integration with the European Union member states. The country is expected to join the Eurozone in 2013.

 

[LAz]

Ugh man, don't be a fool to equate economic growth and wellbeing of the people. The two have little in common with one another. The measure of GDP alone is a poor indicator of the quality of life. And to think that the best you could do is take a wikipedia article.

Especially vivid is the upheval facing the country...
... http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLG80487220090616


Unemployment rising to double digit figures soon, along with a tumbling GDP are vivid.


It's just the simple consequences of pursuing "dependency" rather than "development".
Shit, I can buy up a beach in Bulgaria, make money by getting tourists from england to go there... stuffing myself with the money... I run off with a killing, and GDP technically increases, but it doesn't really help.



In primitive romania, other than dead guys winning elections...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7459695.stm
...we have entire villages being slaughtered by western capital.



In poland the EU is blocking the government from helping out the ship building sector...
... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7714643.stm
And lets not forget that after 15 years of free market economics, all they had to show for it was more income inequality and a 20 percent unemployment rate. That is our poster-boy success model - insane levels of unemployment, brought down only thanks to millions of these serfs fleeing to the West upon entry to the EU.
There were other poster boys for free market capitalism. Guess what happened to them and who they were. Argentina for example. They collapsed because this model sucks. They are now doing quite well with a more smarter approach, one that looks into the fair market more so than the free one. In poland... well, there was not complete collapse as in Argentina, but a stagnant unemployment rate of around 20 percent speaks for itself. GG.








Jee, I think I forgot Romania. Lets ruin the livelihood of much of their population like has been done all over latin america and the third world. You see, the landless-peasants-to-be can not compete with mechanized agriculture. This is where free trade kills them as they can not compete with our prices.

"I did not want to leave my village, because this is the life I've learned ... apartment blocks are too small, the air is dirty and I'm afraid of cars," Serban said.

Such dramas are occurring all over Romania, as one of the European Union's poorest and most backward members tries to modernize its antiquated agricultural sector.

Of almost 13,000 villages in Romania with an average of 800 inhabitants, 100 villages are completely empty and some 1,500 villages have under 100 people, according to the National Statistics Institute.

Some 40 percent of Romania's 22 million people still live in the countryside. It is common to see them working the fields with their hands or with wooden implements and driving horses and carts. Many villages still lack running water.

That's right, we must tame these savages, change their inappropriate way of life, to readjust them into our money making apparatus.

And if it fails we gotta bail it out and keep at the same things that brought us into the mess that we are in.









I on the other hand say no to the "Dependency Syndrome".



edit:
Here is a map of the results of the first election. It's the only such map that I have been able to find... hence it could be better.

 

[BobBob]

Actually, though not perfect, GDP is actually among the best indicators of quality of life and is very closely correlated with life expectancy, literacy, low infant mortality, etc. I realize however that this is just a bunch of nonsense to someone like you.

 

[LAz]

Ugh, another one who see's nothing but classical economic brainwash...

http://www.gimmiethescoop.com/gdp-g...ls-as-an-indicator-of-economic-welfare-part-2
GDP: Gross Domestic Product Fails as an Indicator of Economic Welfare


To rip something off of wikipedia...
Simon Kuznets
...the welfare of a nation can scarcely be inferred from a measure of national income...
From a nobel prize winner - just so ya know that he is not an average bum on the street.



Here's one more, http://www.condoroptions.com/index.php/more-to-life/three-reasons-to-scrap-gdp/




Man, if crime increases, so does GDP... look outside of the box that the classical economists are trying to impose on you.



edit: to quote a french guy...

Gross National Product is the official index sued to assess prosperity. But GNP measures only activity. It measures neither prosperity nor well-being. For example, if a calamity occurs, such as a hurricane or an earthquake, the immediate consequence is a growth in GNP because activity is increased so as to repair the damage. If a great epidemic hits a community, GNP grows as a result of the construction of new hospitals and employment of public health workers. If the crime rate increases, GNP grows as more police join the force and new prisons are built. We can take this even further. The cost of cancer in America is estimated at 110 billion dollars per annum, equal to 1.7 percent of GDP; the cost of drug abuse is 200 billion dollars, or 3.1 per cent of GNP; the cost of crime is 163 billion dollars, or 2.6 per cent of the GNP. These three areas alone contribute 473 billion dollars, 7.3 per cent, to the nation's GNP, and they are all growing. These are extreme examples, certainly, but they demonstrate that GNP is not a qualitative measurement but only a measure of activity, good and bad. Nevertheless, all our official statistics are based on one objective: growth of GNP. An our plans for social development are subservient to it.

At any rate, if we are to take GDP into consideration, Ukraine's GDP had been screwed when the pro-West guys have been in power. So, even if we take this false thinking, we would see that GDP grew the fastest before Yushchenko, and for the very short time that the pro-Russian dude was prime minister while Yushchenko was president.

 

[BobBob]

That's nice, but I'd prefer to see some examples of countries with very low GDP but high "quality of life" indicators, or very high GDP but low QoL. Can you please enlighten?

 

[andrewmp]

Don't bother, it's clear this guy's just praying for Putin to return him to serfdom.

 

[andrewmp]

Ukraine's GDP had been screwed when the pro-West guys have been in power. So, even if we take this false thinking, we would see that GDP grew the fastest before Yushchenko, and for the very short time that the pro-Russian dude was prime minister while Yushchenko was president.

More Kremlin lies!

Can you go back under your bridge now

 

[LAz]

That's nice, but I'd prefer to see some examples of countries with very low GDP but high "quality of life" indicators, or very high GDP but low QoL. Can you please enlighten?

The US has a high GDP, but a huge portion of the population lives below the poverty line and does not have access to health-care. It can easily be said that despite having a higher GDP than some counterparts in Europe, the quality of life is significantly lower.

More Kremlin lies!

Can you go back under your bridge now

No, you go under your bridge.
Ukrine's GDP grew year on year - prior to the dumb orange revolution - was 12 percent, year on year. Then comes orange revolution... and growth falls to less than three percent.
http://www.indexmundi.com/ukraine/gdp_real_growth_rate.html

Yushchenko became PM in 2006 - though that did not last too long. Despite that, we can see the rise in GDP comming back, coinsiding with him being PM.



I mean seriously dude, you can shit with all your baltic tiger statistics - too bad that all that "fake growth" has disappeared with their economic free fall. Latvia is in such economic turmoil right now, as ukraine is. That is the dependancy result - a free fall, because growth is not sustainable in any way. It is simply built upon the quick entrance of capital - followed up by the quick exit.



edit: Even if we suppose that your phony graph gives a good picture - we can clearly see that GDP today is bigger than in the soviet era - yet quality of life was significant higher back then. So shove your GDP statistic back up... the dirty smelly drawer from which you pulled it out from. Better yet - throw that whole cabinet out into the garbage, and don't think about going back to get it.