U.S. Congresswoman calls for high-speed rail linking Manhattan to Canadian cities

[Long Island Mike]

NYC-Toronto Rail Service and NYS High Speed Rail thoughts...

I'd love to know what Amtrak gets out of operating NF NY to TO ON other than a headache. Swapping to VIA crews, the Whirlpool Bridge, the Welland Canal, slow track as far as Aldershot etc. etc. At least with Cascades and Adirondack there's no stopping between the border and the terminus. Does Canada even contribute to Amtrak's costs to run these services?

If I was a US/NY taxpayer I'd be looking at getting Schenectady-Buffalo closer to 110mph which would at least benefit other services like Lake Shore Limited. If developing the Toronto market is really what they want then they should be running Thruway buses to meet every Empire/LSL departure rather than relying on the Maple Leaf.

DM: The Amtrak Maple Leaf is a VIA-operated service for the 84 miles between Niagara Falls,ON and Toronto...
These days Customs/Immigration is the biggest problem these trains face daily...not to mention CN's wish to
abandon the single track across the Whirlpool Bridge...Amtrak and VIA are stepping in supposedly to save this link...

Both the NY-Montreal and Seattle-Vancouver runs run thru because the US/Canada border location is close to both
cities and there is little or no intermediate traffic in Canada on both trains...The only intermediate stop on either
train is St.Lambert on the Adirondack...

The Maple Leaf serves large Ontario population centers like St.Catharines,Hamilton,Burlington and Oakville with
intermediate stops which is a huge difference in comparison to those two other Amtrak trains...

I am all for NYS high-speed rail and I will note that the former New York Central main line between Albany and
Buffalo once had four tracks until CTC (Centralized Traffic Control) was installed during the 1960s...To operate
HSR on today's CSX line would require additional track(s) space...

From Albany S to Croton-Harmon (110 miles) would also need an additional track at least...
This line has today multiple trains operating between Albany and New York's Penn Station...

Even though I would like to see a joint US/Canada HSR service until Customs/Immigration
problems can be straightened out this service would just not work out...

LI MIKE

 

[Dan416]

The problem is that we have to go through customs at all between Canada and the US. Such an antiquated system. Sigh.

 

[reaperexpress]

I think some people are understandably misinterpreting what Americans mean by high speed rail. In their eyes, that's anything over 100mph (160km/h). In most cases it means 110mph, since that's the top speed of their diesel locomotives.

300km/h HSR would indeed be a waste of money in this corridor, but their is great potential for significant time savings on the Maple Leaf with relatively minor costs.

Here are some of my thoughts.

1. Customs
As others have mentioned, the current setup is stupid. Having the customs done en-route forces everyone to wait the maximum possible time. When customs is at the endpoint, wait time is much smaller because customers can leave the station as soon as they've cleared customs. Amtrak trains should run non-stop from Niagara Falls to Toronto, especially considering that VIA is in the process of leaving that corridor anyway. The cost would be that of building customs facilities at Union and Niagara Falls. Domestic service from Toronto to Niagara Falls would be operated by GO transit, which Amtrak riders can transfer to at Niagara Falls Ontario. Time savings would be roughly an hour, including the reduction in stops. It would also vastly improve reliability, because customs often causes delays in the current setup.

2. Stops
The Maple Leaf is a long-distance train, so it should not be serving every little town along the way. Local service within New York State should be the job of the Empire Service, not the Maple Leaf, Adirondack and Lake Shore Limited.
I would drop Depew, Rome, Utica, Amsterdam, and all intermediate stops between Albany-Rensslaer and Penn Station. Assuming a net loss of 5min per stop, the reduction in American stops would save 45min.

So already we're looking at time savings on par with multi-billion dollar HSR projects, for just the cost of operational changes and customs facility construction.

3. Infrastructure
We all know about this one. Make the tracks better so the trains can run faster. Much of the line is incredibly straight, so it would require little realignment to allow 110mph operation. That includes the Canadian section.

 

[Long Island Mike]

More thoughts about Amtrak's Empire Service...

R-E: Good thoughts about the Maple Leaf train service...

First: Customs-There was thought about operating a "closed" train between Niagara Falls,ON and Toronto...
Unless GO Transit expands and takes over the NFS-TOR section service this would not be possible...
A forced transfer at NFS may become a problem...

Today for example on the Maple Leaf's eastbound trip the US Customs stop at NFL is scheduled for TWO HOURS
making the train less competitive than driving or using intercity bus service...for travel between points like TOR-BUF
for example...

Second: Stops-Eliminating Buffalo/Depew,Rome,Utica and stops between Albany-Rensselaer and Penn Station-NYC would
become a problem since NYS DOT is helping fund this service in NYS...Let me correct you and say that the Maple Leaf is
actually a MEDIUM distance train...most runs like this are about 500 miles or a eight hour average time...

As far as I know for example only one pair of NYP-ALB-SDY trains have run nonstop between those points...South AM,North PM
on weekdays...The NYP-ALB route is well patronized and a forced transfer again can be a problem...

I do feel that the ALB-NFL route can support at least one more train pair each way adding up to four round trips per day...
Five if you count the long distance Lake Shore Limited to Chicago using the NYS route...

I also feel that NYS is apprehensive about HSR funding after the Turboliner rebuild fiasco back about ten or so years ago...
NYS DOT sunk millions of dollars into this mid 70s vintage equipment only to have major jurisdiction problems with
Amtrak and previously Conrail (now CSX) which actually banned this equipment from much of their lines after equipment
problems...It turns out that NYS should have invested in new equipment like the Washington State TALGO trains that also
serve Vancouver,BC used on the Pacific International service...

Third-Route and added tracks: The ALB-BUF route can probably accommodate added tracks because much of this route still
is wide enough to allow the added HSR tracks that would be needed in the Empire Corridor...Back in the 1960s NYC removed
two tracks to save on maintenance costs and NYS property taxes primarily...and the reduction of passenger train services back then...

I do feel that this route has major potential...but can the problems here be solved rationally? I believe they can...but...

LI MIKE

 

[Dan416]

I really wish it were more viable to take the train to NYC. It's so close by plane (less than 2 hours). Why should it take like 5x that to get there by train??

 

[reaperexpress]

First: Customs-There was thought about operating a "closed" train between Niagara Falls,ON and Toronto...
Unless GO Transit expands and takes over the NFS-TOR section service this would not be possible...
A forced transfer at NFS may become a problem...

Of course GO would have to massively expand service in the Burlington-NF corridor. That's what I was proposing. VIA is dropping the ball on the route, so GO will need to expand regardless of the Maple Leaf. It would be a bit of a waste to maintain a VIA presence at the stations along the way, just for the one Amtrak train per day.

Today for example on the Maple Leaf's eastbound trip the US Customs stop at NFL is scheduled for TWO HOURS
making the train less competitive than driving or using intercity bus service...for travel between points like TOR-BUF
for example...

Wow, that's really terrible! I had assumed a 30-45min delay at the border, being to lazy to actually look up numbers. If the delay is two hours, then my listed improvements would save over three hours!

Second: Stops-Eliminating Buffalo/Depew,Rome,Utica and stops between Albany-Rensselaer and Penn Station-NYC would
become a problem since NYS DOT is helping fund this service in NYS...Let me correct you and say that the Maple Leaf is
actually a MEDIUM distance train...most runs like this are about 500 miles or a eight hour average time...

If you ask me, a 12 hour, 500 mile (800km) train ride sounds pretty darn long. But that's just me.

I think that there ought to be at least some express service between such large cities separated by such a distance. Especially considering they are they have the highest intercity train boardings in their respective countries. In Europe, pretty much every medium to major city is liked to other medium to major cities by limited-stop service, and those cities are separated by tiny distances compared to the cities in New York State. Amsterdam and Rotterdam are linked by 300km/h high speed rail and they are only 35 miles apart!

The number of people who would benefit from a faster trip far exceeds the number of people who would be losing a departure, or having to transfer. Just because the train wouldn't stop in Rome, Utica and those little communities along the Hudson doesn't mean New York State would benefit less from the train. If anything, it would benefit it more by providing faster service between the larger cities such as Buffalo, Rochester, Albany and New York.

That said, I do understand your point that the frequency is too low on the portion from Albany to Niagara Falls. Even if we don't drop Depew, Rome and Utica, we should still drop those stops along the Hudson. They have high ridership because the Empire Service is their link to their nearest major city (NYC). There is likely not much demand from those tiny communities to Toronto or Niagara Falls, and there is already frequent service to the other destinations within New York State. It's not worth delaying the majority of passengers just so a handful of people can save a transfer.

 

[rbt]

Wow, that's really terrible! I had assumed a 30-45min delay at the border, being to lazy to actually look up numbers. If the delay is two hours, then my listed improvements would save over three hours!

No it wouldn't. The last time I took Mapleleaf across the border (into Buffalo) customs sent the entire train through a high powered X-Ray. Everybody had to get off first and climb back onboard after, and yes, we took our baggage with us to be screened independently.

It took about as long for that process than screening the riders.

So long as customs is looking for stashed items hidden away in train components, even on a randomized basis, it has got to be scheduled in.

 

[Long Island Mike]

R-E: Good reply and thoughts about the Empire Corridor...

I do feel that it can be a thought to discontinue intermediate service on the Maple Leaf to Yonkers,Croton-Harmon,
Poughkeepsie,Rhinecliff and Hudson but until more connecting NYP-ALB is available this option could continue for
Hudson Valley rail riders...

I also want to mention a train that also comes to mind that was discontinued primarily due to Customs/Immigration
interference: The Chicago-Toronto "International" that ran via the Port Huron-Sarnia River Tunnel...This was a true
even partnership between Amtrak and VIA that also saw VIA equipment on average every other day used to Chicago...
The problem was that the schedule became increasingly unreliable and riders were incensed by the sometimes major
delays that this train encountered...I also believe that freight train service also affected that service especially when
it came to using single track segments like the St.Clair River Tunnel...

RBT: I found out myself that Customs/Immigration is screening the Maple Leaf by sending riders' luggage thru Xray
machines as well as checking throughly the train before riders can re-board is being done...I agree that check must
be factored into the train's time at the Border...

LI MIKE

 

[dunkalunk]

With the amount of delay involved, you'd think it'd be easier to just switch trains at the border...