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TTC surface stop spacing

WHY DO YOU HATE OLD PEOPLE???

(Seriously, you should see the stop spacing discussions on the SELRT thread. You would think we were discussing a medivac shuttle for dismembered war soldiers, rather than light rail transit line.)

The reason the stops are closer together is because:

1. Usage is higher with closer tops
2. Wider stop spacing doesn't notably increase travel speed. As stop spacing is widened, the dwell times at each station is also increased. This negates almost all the speed benefits of having wider spacing.
 
Starting June 7, 2015, several Sunday stop changes will start (or should I say "end"). From link:

501 Queen - Sunday Stop Change

Sunday stops will be removed from service starting June 7, 2015.

502 Downtowner - Sunday Stop Change

Sunday stops will be removed from service starting June 7, 2015.

503 Kingston Rd - Sunday Stop Change

Sunday stops will be removed from service starting June 7, 2015.

504 King - Sunday Stop Change

Sunday stops will be removed from service starting June 7, 2015.

505 Dundas - Sunday Stop Change

Sunday stops will be removed from service starting June 7, 2015.

506 Carlton - Sunday Stop Change

Sunday stops will be removed from service starting June 7, 2015.

508 Lake Shore - Sunday Stop Change

Sunday stops will be removed from service starting June 7, 2015.

509 Harbourfront - Sunday Stop Change

Sunday stops will be removed from service starting June 7, 2015.

510 Spadina - Sunday Stop Change

Sunday stops will be removed from service starting June 7, 2015.

511 Bathurst - Sunday Stop Change

Sunday stops will be removed from service starting June 7, 2015.

512 St Clair - Sunday Stop Change

Sunday stops will be removed from service starting June 7, 2015.

Sunday stops are being removed from service throughout the streetcar network because:

  • They are too close to adjacent stops, so they cause unnecessary delay to on-board customers
  • most Sunday stops do not have a traffic signal or pedestrian crosswalk, so customers do not have crossing protection when travelling to/from the stops
The decision to remove Sunday stops has involved consultation with the public and City Councillors and has been approved by the TTC's Board of Directors.
Learn more about our process towards Improving Pedestrian Safety and the actions taken towards Improving Pedestrian Safety
 
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I'm going to really miss those Sunday stops on the 502, 503, and 508.

Fortunately they've announced no plans to remove the Sunday stops on 22.
 
The reason the stops are closer together is because:

1. Usage is higher with closer tops
2. Wider stop spacing doesn't notably increase travel speed. As stop spacing is widened, the dwell times at each station is also increased. This negates almost all the speed benefits of having wider spacing.

The standard for stop spacing used by the TTC is 300 to 400 metres. Stops are only being removed where the resultant spacing is within this guideline. These are ridiculously close stops, often as little as a hundred metres apart. I could see that stops every kilometre would tend to attract more riders than every two kilometres (the coverage area actually doubles), but you get diminishing returns as the stops get closer and closer together.

The difference in coverage area between 150 metre stops and 300 metre stops is pretty minimal, but the difference travel in time is significant. It is true that dwell time increases per stop with reduced stops, assuming that the limitation is the capacity of a door. But we have 30-metre streetcars with all-door loading, so at minor stops such as the ones being removed, the dwell time is pretty much fixed.

Furthermore, the time spent accelerating, decelerating, opening and closing doors is lost per stop, not per passenger. This amounts to around 15 seconds per stop. That might not sound like much, but consider that on a line with a 2 minute headway, cutting the travel time by 1 minute in each direction (i.e. 2 min round trip) reduces the fleet requirement by 1 vehicle. That's $3Million in capital cost saved, plus all the operator, maintenance and energy costs.

Then there's the issue of schedule variability. Streetcars that are early will tend to stop at very few stops, while streetcars that have abnormally long headways will tend to stop at every single stop. With fewer stops, the difference between these two conditions is less, so late vehicles are less likely to get irreparably bogged down.
 
The standard for stop spacing used by the TTC is 300 to 400 metres. Stops are only being removed where the resultant spacing is within this guideline. These are ridiculously close stops, often as little as a hundred metres apart. I could see that stops every kilometre would tend to attract more riders than every two kilometres (the coverage area actually doubles), but you get diminishing returns as the stops get closer and closer together.

The difference in coverage area between 150 metre stops and 300 metre stops is pretty minimal, but the difference travel in time is significant. It is true that dwell time increases per stop with reduced stops, assuming that the limitation is the capacity of a door. But we have 30-metre streetcars with all-door loading, so at minor stops such as the ones being removed, the dwell time is pretty much fixed.

Furthermore, the time spent accelerating, decelerating, opening and closing doors is lost per stop, not per passenger. This amounts to around 15 seconds per stop. That might not sound like much, but consider that on a line with a 2 minute headway, cutting the travel time by 1 minute in each direction (i.e. 2 min round trip) reduces the fleet requirement by 1 vehicle. That's $3Million in capital cost saved, plus all the operator, maintenance and energy costs.

Then there's the issue of schedule variability. Streetcars that are early will tend to stop at very few stops, while streetcars that have abnormally long headways will tend to stop at every single stop. With fewer stops, the difference between these two conditions is less, so late vehicles are less likely to get irreparably bogged down.

In Toronto, we don't see to care about efficiency, but rather cater to every piece of whining and all sorts of frivolous demands. Walking 200 meters is too much - I don't see that argument anywhere in this world. Let's be honest, even downtown Toronto is not that dense by international standard. I have taken transit in central Paris, New York, Tokyo, Shanghai and Istanbul, where ridership is much higher, and nowhere do I see TTC type of narrow spacing. What we do on the streetcars is simply insane, and make everyone's commute unnecessarily long and painful. On the 512 and 501 for example, the streetcar practically stops every single minute or less, to let off and pick of a couple of passengers - rarely old or handicapped - who could walk another 2-3 minutes to the next stop if all those small stops didn't exist.

The King, Queen, Spadina cars can all function in a more fast and efficient way, if we ask passengers to walk just 2 minutes more. However, we simply ignore basic common sense and international practices and keep saying something vague such as "local travel pattern" as if Toronto is so different from any other city in the world when it comes to commute, or use senior passengers as an excuse as if all other cities don't have senior citizens.

Insanely tight spacing is a worse problem than the fact we don't have enough lines. Yes there are some tight stops elsewhere, but nowhere on this planet do we see consistently 150-200 meter spacing across the entire bus/streetcar system, even in areas where density is not high by any standards. Fro Christ' sake, even the Steeles street bus has crazy narrow spacing, when hardly anything is more than 3 story tall. Such practices are sheer stupidity.
 
The standard for stop spacing used by the TTC is 300 to 400 metres. Stops are only being removed where the resultant spacing is within this guideline. These are ridiculously close stops, often as little as a hundred metres apart. I could see that stops every kilometre would tend to attract more riders than every two kilometres (the coverage area actually doubles), but you get diminishing returns as the stops get closer and closer together.

The difference in coverage area between 150 metre stops and 300 metre stops is pretty minimal, but the difference travel in time is significant. It is true that dwell time increases per stop with reduced stops, assuming that the limitation is the capacity of a door. But we have 30-metre streetcars with all-door loading, so at minor stops such as the ones being removed, the dwell time is pretty much fixed.

Furthermore, the time spent accelerating, decelerating, opening and closing doors is lost per stop, not per passenger. This amounts to around 15 seconds per stop. That might not sound like much, but consider that on a line with a 2 minute headway, cutting the travel time by 1 minute in each direction (i.e. 2 min round trip) reduces the fleet requirement by 1 vehicle. That's $3Million in capital cost saved, plus all the operator, maintenance and energy costs.

Then there's the issue of schedule variability. Streetcars that are early will tend to stop at very few stops, while streetcars that have abnormally long headways will tend to stop at every single stop. With fewer stops, the difference between these two conditions is less, so late vehicles are less likely to get irreparably bogged down.

Thank you for actually bringing some facts to the discussion reaperxpress, great explanation of it all.
 
The standard for stop spacing used by the TTC is 300 to 400 metres. Stops are only being removed where the resultant spacing is within this guideline. These are ridiculously close stops, often as little as a hundred metres apart. I could see that stops every kilometre would tend to attract more riders than every two kilometres (the coverage area actually doubles), but you get diminishing returns as the stops get closer and closer together.

The difference in coverage area between 150 metre stops and 300 metre stops is pretty minimal, but the difference travel in time is significant. It is true that dwell time increases per stop with reduced stops, assuming that the limitation is the capacity of a door. But we have 30-metre streetcars with all-door loading, so at minor stops such as the ones being removed, the dwell time is pretty much fixed.

Furthermore, the time spent accelerating, decelerating, opening and closing doors is lost per stop, not per passenger. This amounts to around 15 seconds per stop. That might not sound like much, but consider that on a line with a 2 minute headway, cutting the travel time by 1 minute in each direction (i.e. 2 min round trip) reduces the fleet requirement by 1 vehicle. That's $3Million in capital cost saved, plus all the operator, maintenance and energy costs.

Then there's the issue of schedule variability. Streetcars that are early will tend to stop at very few stops, while streetcars that have abnormally long headways will tend to stop at every single stop. With fewer stops, the difference between these two conditions is less, so late vehicles are less likely to get irreparably bogged down.

My comments were in response to the design of the Sheppard East Line.
 
My comments were in response to the design of the Sheppard East Line.

Still, many new US streetcar (NOT light rail) lines have similar stop spacing to the Sheppard LRT, in environments far more dense. I even did a research study to interview people regarding the stop spacing on the line, and had to change stops because the bus stop was so underutilized!
 
Still, many new US streetcar (NOT light rail) lines have similar stop spacing to the Sheppard LRT, in environments far more dense. I even did a research study to interview people regarding the stop spacing on the line, and had to change stops because the bus stop was so underutilized!

"Many new US streetcar (NOT light rail) lines ..." are considered very successful with ridership levels well below that of the current Sheppard bus.

Many US streetcar systems will not be skilful models for Finch/Sheppard.
 
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"Many new US streetcar (NOT light rail) lines ..." are considered very successful with ridership levels well below that of the current Sheppard bus.

Many US streetcar systems will not be skilful models for Finch/Sheppard.

My impression is that most new streetcar systems in the US have dismal ridership, and are really more like zoo monorails for tourists than public transportation.
 
My impression is that most new streetcar systems in the US have dismal ridership, and are really more like zoo monorails for tourists than public transportation.

Tuscon averages only 4,000 people per day and is subsidizing operations at $3M per year. This is marketed as a success and "beyond all expectations".

On top of that their selection of a one time manufacturer has become a serious problem. Just one year in they are facing the issue of having no additional replacement parts ever available and never being able to add additional cars of the same model.
 
My impression is that most new streetcar systems in the US have dismal ridership, and are really more like zoo monorails for tourists than public transportation.
I can say yes to low ridership, but no to tourist.

One only has to go to Buffalo to see this.

I only saw Norfolk system on a Sunday and it was the pits. On a end to end run around noon, no more than 10 riders used the system that starts at 11 am and runs every 15 minutes. Even late in the afternoon, riders were missing in action.

I find it amusing that systems are being built to handle less that 10,000 riders a day or less, yet we can't build one for 20-40,000 today. A fair numbers carry more than 10,000 per day and seeing great increase.

The Green Line in St Paul that open last year is carrying far more riders than it was plan for its first year.

Stop spacing are further apart than ours.
 
How does the Sheppard subway line's ridership compare to other metro lines? I get about 9165 passengers per kilometer, or 10,082 per station on average.

Getting ridership stats per line is more difficult than you would think, let alone a list of all routes. Vancouver's Canada line comes to 7097 passengers/km, or 8516 passengers/station. Of course, this line has a spur on it, which does throw a wrench in a fair comparison. Not to mention is partly built above ground, which makes lower ridership numbers more palatable financially.

I can't seem to find ridership numbers for Montreal's Blue line, which would likely be the most accurate comparison, anywhere online.
 
I can say yes to low ridership, but no to tourist.

One only has to go to Buffalo to see this.

I only saw Norfolk system on a Sunday and it was the pits. On a end to end run around noon, no more than 10 riders used the system that starts at 11 am and runs every 15 minutes. Even late in the afternoon, riders were missing in action.

I find it amusing that systems are being built to handle less that 10,000 riders a day or less, yet we can't build one for 20-40,000 today. A fair numbers carry more than 10,000 per day and seeing great increase.

The Green Line in St Paul that open last year is carrying far more riders than it was plan for its first year.

Stop spacing are further apart than ours.

It should be remembered that the U.S. transit agencies generally have a much higher operating subsidy than the TTC gets. They can operate with lower ridership numbers, however at wider headways than Toronto. Having five minute subway headways on Sundays is very rare, when compared with the U.S..

The U.S. transit agencies also gets a subsidy from all levels of government to operate, while the TTC has only the city. Don't confuse this with the capital budget, in which the TTC (and other transit agencies in Canada) get one-of capital gifts from the province and federal governments.
 

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