Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
Over a month. Compare with a weekend using 280 people in Zurich, Switzerland. Has been shown before, but to avoid searching for it, here it is.
Last edited:
|
|
|
TTC: Streetcar Network
- Thread starter wolfewood
- Start date
hw621
Senior Member
Now, a developed white European country with similar labor regulations for comparison. Can't use the China excuses any more...
drum118
Superstar
Comparing Apples to Oranges not only for Zurich, but also most places in the world. I have seen that intersection a number of times over the years.
What the world does is opposed to TTC. They don't built a base with various ducting under it and then place ties on top of it follow by rail that has to be splice when TTC crews show up. Concrete for the tracks are poured in four phases. At the same time, Bell and Hydro may need to do work in the area before tracks can be place. Manpower is another issue as well able to work 7/24 in Toronto compared to the world regardless of noise..
TTC has stated in the past that the base will last 75-100 years with ties at 50 years. Rail may last 25-30 years depending on locations, but some have only lasted 5 years. To replace the rails now requires the top coat of concrete to be remove follow by removing the rail clips to remove the rail and clip the new one in place to have a new top coat pour. TTC hasn't been fast doing this so far.
I have seen 6 methods for building tracks and it is hard to say which one is the right one. Detroit trackwork is the worse of them all that has so much rebar around the trackwork and the road, Is TTC doing it right??
Bojaxs
Senior Member
As I recently mentioned in the Line 6 thread. How realistic is it that we can get any kind of aggressive TSP for Toronto's streetcars and LRT's without pedestrian refuge islands in the middle of the cross walks?
In this Google maps image, the streetcar has to wait for these people to cross the street before it can advance. Unless these pedestrians are expected to stand in the middle of a lane of traffic to allow a streetcar to pass by in front of them, I don't think it's realistic to expect TSP will speed up the streetcars.
The TTC would first have to look at extending station platforms all the way to the cross walks to act as refuge islands for pedestrians before they could seriously consider an aggressive form of TSP for the streetcars. And this would only be possible for streetcars with their own dedicated ROW.
EDIT: Nevermind. I just looked at more intersection along Spadina, and you couldn't possibly add refuge islands at this intersection.
In this Google maps image, the streetcar has to wait for these people to cross the street before it can advance. Unless these pedestrians are expected to stand in the middle of a lane of traffic to allow a streetcar to pass by in front of them, I don't think it's realistic to expect TSP will speed up the streetcars.
The TTC would first have to look at extending station platforms all the way to the cross walks to act as refuge islands for pedestrians before they could seriously consider an aggressive form of TSP for the streetcars. And this would only be possible for streetcars with their own dedicated ROW.
EDIT: Nevermind. I just looked at more intersection along Spadina, and you couldn't possibly add refuge islands at this intersection.
Last edited:
zang
Senior Member
Sure you could. Just get rid of curb parking and the right hand turn lane. Altogether, getting rid of curbside parking spots would go a long way to speeding up the streetcar network.As I recently mentioned in the Line 6 thread. How realistic is it that we can get any kind of aggressive TSP for Toronto's streetcars and LRT's without pedestrian refuge islands in the middle of the cross walks?
In this Google maps image, the streetcar has to wait for these people to cross the street before it can advance. Unless these pedestrians are expected to stand in the middle of a lane of traffic to allow a streetcar to pass by in front of them.
Would the TTC have to first look at extending station platforms all the way to the cross walks to act as refuge islands for pedestrians before they could seriously consider an aggressive form of TSP for the streetcars? And this would only be possible for streetcars with their own dedicated ROW.
View attachment 706491
EDIT: Nevermind. I just looked at more intersection along Spadina, and you couldn't possibly add refuge islands at this intersection.
Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
On St. Clair Avenue West, when they "reinstalled" the streetcar right-of-way, they ADDED left turn lanes. They cut space from the sidewalk and added single-occupant automobile left-turn priority in the process. The automobile comes first in Toronto.
Passengers getting on Toronto Civic Railway car 6 at St. Clair Ave. W. and Dufferin St. (Note, NO left turn lanes and NO traffic signals.)
March 15, 1920
Passengers getting on Toronto Civic Railway car 6 at St. Clair Ave. W. and Dufferin St. (Note, NO left turn lanes and NO traffic signals.)
March 15, 1920
Bojaxs
Senior Member
Ah, but now you see. If we wanted to actually speed up the Spadina streetcar via TSP, we would need to entirely redesign the street.
It's not just a simple matter or "switching on" TSP.
To add a refuge island here, you would need to scrap the left turning lane, or move it over to the next lane and take away a car lane. We would effectively have to reduce Spadina down from 6 lanes to 4 lanes.
zang
Senior Member
If we're not going to redesign Spadina, TSP would still likely do wonders.
Bojaxs
Senior Member
How so? I very much doubt it.
Another issue is the turning tracks where Spadina meets East-West streetcars. Such as Spadina & Queen
The city would have to shift the crosswalks further away from the intersections so as to properly build a pedestrian/ refuge island without coming into conflict with the turning tracks. Which would mean having to redesign the Spadina streetcar stops. Also means having to shift light posts and overhead wires around.
T3G
Senior Member
Why would you need to add refuge islands? Surely a much more pragmatic approach to the problem would be merely to position the activation mechanism for TSP far enough away that the current crossing cycle at the upcoming intersection would conclude before the streetcar arrives.Ah, but now you see. If we wanted to actually speed up the Spadina streetcar via TSP, we would need to entirely redesign the street.
It's not just a simple matter or "switching on" TSP.
To add a refuge island here, you would need to scrap the left turning lane, or move it over to the next lane and take away a car lane. We would effectively have to reduce Spadina down from 6 lanes to 4 lanes.
Bojaxs
Senior Member
I'll refer you to Marco Chitti's Bluesky post regarding Line 6. He does a better job of explaining it than I could.
Marco Chitti (@chittimarco.bsky.social)
The problem is that it's going to be hard to have very strong TSP, because the very reason you can't have it (one-stage pedestrian crossings that take too long, preventing truncated red as a tsp strategy) has been literally cast in concrete by not having refuge islands in many places.
bsky.app
Considering how short the stop spacing is on the Spadina streetcar line. You would basically have to signal the intersection ahead just as the streetcar is pulling away from it's current stop.
Last edited:
zang
Senior Member
that’s a problem why? It’s grade separated; it’s not like there will be cars in the way.
txlseries4
Active Member
Because people are walking across and the signal is so long since the intersection is wide and there are no refuge islands. Since the stops are so close (~300m from Sullivan to Queen) the TSP system would "end" the WALK signal, switch to DON'T WALK for people to finish crossing, since flashing don't walk provides “a reasonable time provided for the pedestrian who entered the crosswalk at the very last moment of the walk interval to reach a designated pedestrian refuge”... but there aren't any until the other side, ~30m away, and FDW is timed at 1.1 m/s, so that's ~30 seconds.
I know some people think the timing is too long and should be shortened, but there are lots of people, even temporarily (crutches) or situationally (walking with young kids), who need that full time to cross.
Excellent callback to a great post of his. Since some won't click through on that link here's what he had to say:I'll refer you to Marco Chitti's Bluesky post regarding Line 6. He does a better job of explaining it than I could.
Marco Chitti (@chittimarco.bsky.social)
The problem is that it's going to be hard to have very strong TSP, because the very reason you can't have it (one-stage pedestrian crossings that take too long, preventing truncated red as a tsp strategy) has been literally cast in concrete by not having refuge islands in many places.
Considering how short the stop spacing is on the Spadina streetcar line. You would basically have to signal the intersection ahead just as the streetcar is pulling away from it's current stop.
nfitz
Superstar
You could also simply move the stop line further back, and use the existing platform as the refuge. You'd have to redo the concrete work and fencing a bit for the wheelchair ramps - but little else other than paint.
Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
Originally, the streetcar right-of-ways on Spadina & St. Clair (1920's) did NOT have left turn lanes. The streetcars were treated a "railways" until the 1990's, the streetcars had the right-of-way, the turning autos had to wait until the streetcars crossed the intersection. The left turn lanes were added by request, rather demanded by the automobile lobby in the 1950's. Need to treat streetcar as "street railways", as they were originally. Unfortunately, with an automobile disciple like Doug Ford acting as parent/Premier, that won't happen.