TTC: Streetcar Network

[NoahB]

I would like to beat a dead horse.

When Eglinton opens it will be part of the RT not part of the Streetcar network. Why is that? And, why are we ok with that?. The surface section sounds like it is similar to St Clair and Spadina. The underground section is like the section along Queens Quay. I understand that the stops are spaced further apart, but not to the same distance as most of the RT stops are. I understand that there is a different track gauge, Line 3 will be the only line currently with the same gauge, standard gauge. The Subways and the streetcar lines all are to the Toronto gauge.

The Rt map should show all lines that are completely separated from traffic, then Eglinton would not be RT. If you say it is in it's own lane, the St Clair and Spadina should be added.

Because while the Crosstown vehicles "sound" like existing TTC streetcars, they actually are a different vehicle. They are from the same Flexity family, but the Crosstown Flexity Freedom is wider, faster, has doors on both sides, uses standard gauge, and can be coupled together. The TTC Flexity Outlook is designed for tight curves, uses TTC's gauge, and is single-ended.

They are similar but not the same.

 

[micheal_can]

Because while the Crosstown vehicles "sound" like existing TTC streetcars, they actually are a different vehicle. They are from the same Flexity family, but the Crosstown Flexity Freedom is wider, faster, has doors on both sides, uses standard gauge, and can be coupled together. The TTC Flexity Outlook is designed for tight curves, uses TTC's gauge, and is single-ended.

They are similar but not the same.

But the subway is all TTC gauge. Therefor, they are streetcars? That is my problem with the Crosstown. It is not an RT any ore than St Clair or Spadina is, but we are being convinced it is for something that could be argued out by existing equipment and construction.

 

[W. K. Lis]

From TTC’s 2020-2029 Key Capital Investment Priorities: Subway Infrastructure and Accelerated Vehicle Procurements at this link:

Advancement of New Streetcars

Both the July 2018 Board report entitled New Streetcar Program – Resubmission of RFI Results for 60 Additional Streetcars regarding the procurement of additional streetcars and the 5-year Service Plan, identified the immediate need for 60 additional streetcars for reliability improvements and growth. The 60 streetcars will relieve crowding during peak service, accommodate increases in travel time due to traffic congestion and accommodate projected growth to approximately 2026. The 60 additional streetcars will allow buses that are currently supplementing streetcar service to return to operate on bus routes.

The TTC Capital Investment Plan identified the cost of the 60 streetcars at $418 million and the cost of associated infrastructure modifications required at TTC’s Hillcrest facility (1138 Bathurst Street) in the amount of $85 million. The existing three streetcar maintenance facilities can accommodate a total of 264 LFLRVs under crush load conditions. It is inefficient to operate under crush load conditions. Therefore, additional storage tracks will be required at TTC’s Hillcrest facility.

Future needs for streetcars in the Portlands and other streetcar network expansion would require the ordering of even more streetcars. Say 40+ more?

 

[tmlittle]

No where have I said abandon. I'm just pointing out TTC has a good excuse to not buy more streetcars at the moment and use buses as supplements. They need to get streetcars that actually meets the reliability. When they hit half life, their reliability will decline.

A failure is defined by the TTC as a delay lasting 5 minutes or more. With a lower reliability rate on the Flexity's, riders are more likely to experience a delay plus they hold up the entire line unlike buses.

What's the alternative here? Alstom vehicles aren't exactly doing well in Ottawa right now, and continued overreliance on buses will slow down bus fleet renewal and electrification. It's also business for Thunder Bay, which strategically speaking needs to stay open if we're going to see the light rail industry actually grow in Ontario.

 

[drum118]

What's the alternative here? Alstom vehicles aren't exactly doing well in Ottawa right now, and continued overreliance on buses will slow down bus fleet renewal and electrification. It's also business for Thunder Bay, which strategically speaking needs to stay open if we're going to see the light rail industry actually grow in Ontario.

CAF Urbos and Stadler. Then there is Siemens that has 95% of the US market. CRRC has a plant in Moncton, N.B

Canada is a small market and why most manufactures of streetcars don't exist in the first place. We have seen what happen to go to a sole supplier and why should taxpayers pay over price equipment to protect jobs for a few people? The US market is in the same boat.

 

[NoahB]

But the subway is all TTC gauge. Therefor, they are streetcars? That is my problem with the Crosstown. It is not an RT any ore than St Clair or Spadina is, but we are being convinced it is for something that could be argued out by existing equipment and construction.

You disregarded all of the other vehicle differences I mentioned...
Your question works both ways: the RT and T1 trains both use the TTC gauge, are they streetcars?

The trains on the Crosstown share as many features with the TTC subway trains as they do with TTC streetcar rolling stock. For example, the Crosstown's Flexity Freedom has doors on both sides, so it can support both center platforms and side platforms at stations, like a subway train. They are also expected to be coupled together into longer trains, like a subway train. They are going to be automated inside the tunnels, like the subway. And so on.

The point is: You can't slap a dedicated lane on a regular bus or streetcar and pretend they are now BRT and LRT. St Clair or Spadina's streetcars cant do any of the above. Hence they are not called LRT in Toronto. (even though they tried to brand Spadina at launch as an LRT and it only caused confusion. That's another matter)

 

[micheal_can]

You disregarded all of the other vehicle differences I mentioned...
Your question works both ways: the RT and T1 trains both use the TTC gauge, are they streetcars?

The trains on the Crosstown share as many features with the TTC subway trains as they do with TTC streetcar rolling stock. For example, the Crosstown's Flexity Freedom has doors on both sides, so it can support both center platforms and side platforms at stations, like a subway train. They are also expected to be coupled together into longer trains, like a subway train. They are going to be automated inside the tunnels, like the subway. And so on.

The point is: You can't slap a dedicated lane on a regular bus or streetcar and pretend they are now BRT and LRT. St Clair or Spadina's streetcars cant do any of the above. Hence they are not called LRT in Toronto. (even though they tried to brand Spadina at launch as an LRT and it only caused confusion. That's another matter)

Spacing, King to Queen Station is under 400m. One can argue that is too close for subway stations, so therefor this is not a subway. I would not argue that the King or Queen lines are LRT as they run with traffic and do not get special signals. But, as I understand Eglinton, it will not have signal priority, like LRTs elsewhere get. So, it is less an LRT than we may want to agree to. So, why not put Spadina and ST Clair routes on the RT map as they match more like what Eglinton will be.

 

[NoahB]

Spacing, King to Queen Station is under 400m. One can argue that is too close for subway stations, so therefor this is not a subway. I would not argue that the King or Queen lines are LRT as they run with traffic and do not get special signals. But, as I understand Eglinton, it will not have signal priority, like LRTs elsewhere get. So, it is less an LRT than we may want to agree to. So, why not put Spadina and ST Clair routes on the RT map as they match more like what Eglinton will be.

What part of the 'rolling stock and stations are different' do you not understand? Along with vehicles that have subway features, the Crosstown underground stations are full-on subway stations. While the LRT stops go above and beyond what a regular TTC stop provides. ie, shade, information panels, seating, and self-service ticket vending/validation equipment. (from the Environmental Project Report, p.62)

And the crosstown will have signal priority if their "LRT Facts" document is to be believed.

Please research before you make any more posts.

 

[Rainforest]

I think the rolling stock and the track gauge are less relevant for 99% of the riders who are not transit fans. What really matters for them is speed and capacity. In that sense, Eglinton LRT will have more similarity to the subways than with the St Clair line:
- Eglinton: 25-28 kph, almost as fast as Line 2 subway, mostly due to the central tunnel section, but also because of the wide surface stop spacing. St Clair: much slower, 15 kph at best, because of the build form with many cross streets.
- Eglinton: capacity of 7-8 k per hour per direction on the opening day, and can be expanded to ~ 13 k if needed. St Clair would choke at anything higher than 5-6 k.
- Eglinton: spawns much of the city, can be used to travel from one part to another. St Clair: only 7 km in length, great for local service but too short and too slow for traveling from one part of the city to another.

Now, deciding what to put / not put on a map is always a matter of debate, unless that's a complete transit map. Eglinton is a notch lower than subway, but a notch higher than Finch LRT. Finch is a notch higher than St Clair and Spadina. Those are, in turn, a notch higher than Queen or Dundas or College. The choice of the cutoff is somewhat arbitrary.

I would probably put all subways, UPX, and all dedicated-lane LRT/streetcar lines on the generalized map. That means: ECLRT, Finch, St Clair, Spadina, Harborfront. Other people have other preferences though.

 

[micheal_can]

What part of the 'rolling stock and stations are different' do you not understand? Along with vehicles that have subway features, the Crosstown underground stations are full-on subway stations. While the LRT stops go above and beyond what a regular TTC stop provides. ie, shade, information panels, seating, and self-service ticket vending/validation equipment. (from the Environmental Project Report, p.62)

And the crosstown will have signal priority if their "LRT Facts" document is to be believed.

Please research before you make any more posts.

I have done research and cannot really find much that makes it different.

The LRT underground stations, How are they different from Queen's Quay Station?
The Above stations sounds exactly like Spadina and St Clair. I think once they are open, I will need to really look for those differences.

They have been talking about signal priority on the Spadina and the St Clair lines for a while. In act, the TTC seems to talk a lot about transit priority that never really materializes..

 

[micheal_can]

I think the rolling stock and the track gauge are less relevant for 99% of the riders who are not transit fans. What really matters for them is speed and capacity. In that sense, Eglinton LRT will have more similarity to the subways than with the St Clair line:
- Eglinton: 25-28 kph, almost as fast as Line 2 subway, mostly due to the central tunnel section, but also because of the wide surface stop spacing. St Clair: much slower, 15 kph at best, because of the build form with many cross streets.
- Eglinton: capacity of 7-8 k per hour per direction on the opening day, and can be expanded to ~ 13 k if needed. St Clair would choke at anything higher than 5-6 k.
- Eglinton: spawns much of the city, can be used to travel from one part to another. St Clair: only 7 km in length, great for local service but too short and too slow for traveling from one part of the city to another.

Now, deciding what to put / not put on a map is always a matter of debate, unless that's a complete transit map. Eglinton is a notch lower than subway, but a notch higher than Finch LRT. Finch is a notch higher than St Clair and Spadina. Those are, in turn, a notch higher than Queen or Dundas or College. The choice of the cutoff is somewhat arbitrary.

I would probably put all subways, UPX, and all dedicated-lane LRT/streetcar lines on the generalized map. That means: ECLRT, Finch, St Clair, Spadina, Harborfront. Other people have other preferences though.

Thank you for those comparisons. It helps me understand what the differences are.

 

[Steve X]

I have done research and cannot really find much that makes it different.

The LRT underground stations, How are they different from Queen's Quay Station?
The Above stations sounds exactly like Spadina and St Clair. I think once they are open, I will need to really look for those differences.

They have been talking about signal priority on the Spadina and the St Clair lines for a while. In act, the TTC seems to talk a lot about transit priority that never really materializes..

Queens Quay is a pretty crappy cheap station. The Crosstown ones would feel more like a subway station being deep, centre platform with escalators and elevators. Their entrances seems much nicer and inviting that Queens Quay plus level boarding. At Queens Quay one would have to step up and ramps deployed for accessibility.

The surface stops are wider (like the ION stations) with lighting and informational electronic signs. Other than that, I think the surface section would really feel more like Spadina or St Clair.

As to appearing on the Rapid Transit map, I would say Line 5 does and 510/512 doesn't. The big difference isn't how the vehicles or stops look like but the purpose of each line. Line 5 is designed for regional longer distance travel while the 510/512 are pretty local lines. Line 6 is hmmmm... maybe? It does serve a regional purpose by connect to Humber College which would become a transit hub. The 900 Airport Express does deserve to be on the map to help tourists navigate the city while other express bus routes don't.

 

[Allandale25]

And this doesn't even include the population increase along the routes...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1220744686157094912

 

[W. K. Lis]

And this doesn't even include the population increase along the routes...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1220744686157094912

The replacing the streetcars with buses for construction or shortages is the problem. Transit users do not like using buses, especially on streetcar routes. They end up looking for alternatives, like the subway (wish them luck with the shutdowns, early closures, or stoppages).

 

[sche]

The LRT underground stations, How are they different from Queen's Quay Station?

you can literally walk across the tracks at queens quay, there is no concourse level or anything