TTC: St. Clair Streetcar Right Of Way

[GraphicMatt]

Signal priority has always seemed half-assed in Toronto. They'll install the technology and keep it working -- sort of -- but there's no metric for evaluating its effectiveness. As it is, the most common occurrence I see of 'signal priority' on streetcar routes is a light holding green while a streetcar waits for passengers to load or unload. As soon as the doors close, the light goes red.

There's got to be a more advanced way to do this. I'd think an ideal circumstance would see a button on the vehicles themselves that the operator could push to request or cancel a green light.

 

[accura407]

Does anyone here realize that signal priority is impossible for Toronto streetcar routes because they are small little vehicles that come often. How can an entire road system keep giving a streetcar priority when it comes so often. Worse yet, they bunch together...

Make the St. Clair line like a real rapid transit line that has frequencies no less than 5 minutes. Then only could the line properly operate with signal priority...None of this bunching crap.

And by the way...why does this line along with Spadina bunch up if it is running an entirely seperate line? Poor Management of course...which is always rewarded

 

[wopchop]

Bunching along the 512 is nowhere near as bad or on the same scale as the bunching on the 510.

 

[Rainforest]

An easy argument for a signal reprogram could be "Stop wasting taxpayers' money paying drivers to sit at red lights", to conform to the current administration's rhetoric.

That's a great slogan

 

[Rainforest]

Does anyone here realize that signal priority is impossible for Toronto streetcar routes because they are small little vehicles that come often. How can an entire road system keep giving a streetcar priority when it comes so often. Worse yet, they bunch together...

They don't come that often on St Clair. And if you count the number of passengers in a streetcar and compare it to the number of drivers and passengers in the cars that might get delayed, the streetcar might win.

If the streetcars bunch together, then the priority could be given to the leading streetcar only. That could actually help to un-bunch them.

And by the way...why does this line along with Spadina bunch up if it is running an entirely seperate line? Poor Management of course...which is always rewarded

Management of that line is certainly not brilliant. However, even with bunching, one usually does not have to wait long for a vehicle.

 

[Jonny5]

How can an entire road system keep giving a streetcar priority when it comes so often.

Given most intersections have a complete cycle in about 60 seconds, I can't see the road system could having any difficulties whatsoever.

 

[CapitalSeven]

With the new streetcars being twice as large as the old ones, peak hour headways will be longer and signal priority will make more sense.

 

[Electrify]

Wide stop spacing should be reserved for trunk routes, so that many riders transferring from the feeder routes can benefit from the fast ride.

St Clair, on the other hand, is a route with exclusively local function. There is one real trunk route (Bloor) 2 km to the south, and in a few years there should be one more trunk (Eglinton) 2 km to the north.

Running an express / local combination on St Clair would have very little network-wide benefit. It could be of some limited benefit for the people living or working near St Clair only, but the cost of operation such combined service would be disproportionate given that those people already have the advantage of a ROW. Many riders living in other areas don't have that.

I'll admit that is a good point that I didn't take as seriously as I should have. Still, I do see an opportunity to increase spacing to what Transit City was going to be, around 400-600m from the current 200-300m that it is now. Considering that streetcars have higher capacities than buses, there is a decent argument that their stops should be somewhat wider than bus routes.

 

[Tuscani01]

Management of that line is certainly not brilliant. However, even with bunching, one usually does not have to wait long for a vehicle.

Try living south of King on Spadina. The wait is ridiculous.

 

[hawc]

Huh, I live South of King on Spadina and there is almost always a streetcar approaching or at my stop when I get there. The longest I've ever had to wait was 10 minutes.

 

[nfitz]

Huh, I live South of King on Spadina and there is almost always a streetcar approaching or at my stop when I get there. The longest I've ever had to wait was 10 minutes.

Always, or just recently. Haven't the been experimenting with extending most of the service from King to Queens Quay? Or did that end.

 

[Tuscani01]

Always, or just recently. Haven't the been experimenting with extending most of the service from King to Queens Quay? Or did that end.

They added one extra streetcar going south to Queens Quay (Should've gone to Union, but Queens Quay will do) and that ended in September. I've had to regularly wait 10-17 minutes for a streetcar heading to Union at Bremner/Spadina since they decreased service south of King in September. (When one does come, its usually 1 going to Union, and right behind is one short-turning at Queens Quay). I wouldn't mind if the Queens Quay short turn came 5 minutes before the Union car does (It would allow me to transfer to the 509), but that never happens. They both come at the same time. Walking down to Queens Quay and taking the 509 is usually my best bet.

Its not a problem during the summer, but during the winter, the waits are nuts. Seeing as I can drive to work in 17 minutes total, that 10-17 minute wait is the difference between me continuing to take transit, and purchasing a car... and I am incredibly close to giving up on transit.

 

[Palma]

St. Clair Streetcar Right of Way - Worth it?

I'll admit that is a good point that I didn't take as seriously as I should have. Still, I do see an opportunity to increase spacing to what Transit City was going to be, around 400-600m from the current 200-300m that it is now. Considering that streetcars have higher capacities than buses, there is a decent argument that their stops should be somewhat wider than bus routes.

I do not see what the spacing has to do with a higher capacity streetcar. The spacing is to the benefit of customers so they don't have to walk too far to catch a streetcar. Unless the new streetcars are so long that they basically take up 2 stops then you can increase the spacing I guess

 

[wopchop]

Despite all the talk about stop spacing and bunching (neither of which are huge issues on the 512, IMO), the biggest issue related to the line is the ROW beyond Old Weston Road. It doesn't really affect the streetcar per se, but the narrowing to one lane in each direction at the railway overpass is a big problem, and is effectively choking traffic in this area of town. With the stockyards plazas to the West, and the Weston Flea Market right at this corner, the area draws a lot of vehicular traffic. I'd love to see some sort of rectification of this problem.

Ideas;

- Widening the underpass is obviously the best solution, but likely the most expensive.
- Connecting Davenport to Lloyd would relieve the left hand turning pressure at this intersection, although it would involve expropriation.
- Connect Old Weston Rd to Weston Rd - somewhere north of St. Clair, but south of Rogers.
- Extend the 512 to at least Runnymede. It's possible that if the streetcar went to Walmart, we might divert some cars.

 

[Fred.S]

Despite all the talk about stop spacing and bunching (neither of which are huge issues on the 512, IMO), the biggest issue related to the line is the ROW beyond Old Weston Road. It doesn't really affect the streetcar per se, but the narrowing to one lane in each direction at the railway overpass is a big problem, and is effectively choking traffic in this area of town. With the stockyards plazas to the West, and the Weston Flea Market right at this corner, the area draws a lot of vehicular traffic. I'd love to see some sort of rectification of this problem.

Ideas;

- Widening the underpass is obviously the best solution, but likely the most expensive.
- Connecting Davenport to Lloyd would relieve the left hand turning pressure at this intersection, although it would involve expropriation.
- Connect Old Weston Rd to Weston Rd - somewhere north of St. Clair, but south of Rogers.
- Extend the 512 to at least Runnymede. It's possible that if the streetcar went to Walmart, we might divert some cars.

Good ideas. I'd also add resurrecting the Old Weston Rd Bridge to Dundas, which would do a lot to relieve the heavy Keele traffic in the Junction. I think making this in addition to your suggestions, but all just as two-lane roads, with bike infrastructure, would go a long way to even out the traffic patterns. Cars wouldn't run fast, but would have a more constant flow. If the 512 was extended west, a lot of it would probably be a single traffic lane per direction, but having a good network around would keep traffic alright.