TTC: St. Clair Streetcar Right Of Way

[drum118]

West of Gunns Road, the city planted tree saplings in the wide green boulevard. Looks like someone at city hall does not want the St. Clair streetcar extended westward.

Or it could be another "gravy" project, should they have to be removed when they do extend the St. Clair streetcar.

The idea of extending 512 west of Gunns loop has been around a few decades. It was first to go to Runnymede and then to Scarlett Rd with 3 options of going west from there. This also including the widening of the road.

The city has been buying up land as it comes on the market to widen St Clair going west.

The EA for Runnymede was on the books around the beginning of 2000, but was put on hold after the SOS mess. It was also stated that the new line needed to be in operation for at least 1 year after completion of the ROW.

When Transit City first surface, it threw the plan going west of Runnymede up in the air as it was not known how 512 would interchange with Jane St LRT. Since the Jane St LRT is unknown if it will every get built as well Ford in office, taking 512 west is at least 20-30 years down the road at this time.

I still say that the DRL should go up Jane St due to width issues in the first place for the LRT. The DRL Station would service both Dundas and St Clair underground with 512 on the surface since the track gauges will be different in the first place.

The street ROW was widen as part of the big box complex when it was built, but the road wasn't until a year or so ago.

 

[junctionist]

The whole area has seen perhaps the worst planning the city has to offer. It started with the redevelopment of the Stock Yards, which was an interesting historic district with early 20th century warehouses, a Victorian steam-era roundhouse and locomotive shops, and red brick lanes between the animal pens and slaughterhouses. It was completely cleared for generic big box stores with massive parking lots. That's as bad as planning can get. Some complain about the way Liberty Village has been developed, but it looks amazing next to the Stock Yards. It's not too late for some positive city-building in the area with the big box stores easily expendable and some new infrastructure, though.

 

[calimehtar]

Thanks, that's an interesting perspective on the Stockyards. On the one hand it's right across the street from another large collection of big box stores so it doesn't seem out of place. But on the other, that larger area including the Junction, the Junction Triangle, Saint Clair around Weston, and even Rogers Rd. has a lot of unrealized potential so it's too bad to see it wasted in parking lots.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The idea of extending 512 west of Gunns loop has been around a few decades. It was first to go to Runnymede and then to Scarlett Rd with 3 options of going west from there. This also including the widening of the road.

The city has been buying up land as it comes on the market to widen St Clair going west.

The EA for Runnymede was on the books around the beginning of 2000, but was put on hold after the SOS mess. It was also stated that the new line needed to be in operation for at least 1 year after completion of the ROW.

When Transit City first surface, it threw the plan going west of Runnymede up in the air as it was not known how 512 would interchange with Jane St LRT. Since the Jane St LRT is unknown if it will every get built as well Ford in office, taking 512 west is at least 20-30 years down the road at this time.

I still say that the DRL should go up Jane St due to width issues in the first place for the LRT. The DRL Station would service both Dundas and St Clair underground with 512 on the surface since the track gauges will be different in the first place.

The street ROW was widen as part of the big box complex when it was built, but the road wasn't until a year or so ago.

St. Clair Avenue West, west of the Gunns loop, is in Ward 11, York South-Weston. Councillor Frances Nunziata's ward.

Nunziata is the Speaker at the City Hall and a close supporter of Mayor Rob Ford. Since Rob is known to be anti-streetcar and Nunziata would want to remain on good terms with him, she seems, to me, to not want to improve streetcar service by extending the St. Clair westward or else risk his wrath. We will be stuck with the buses for now.

 

[drum118]

Nunziata push for a wider Scarlett Rd bridge with a streetcar ROW in it. This also included a redesign Dundas intersection. I believe the bridge is still on the books for construction in 2014/15.

She was more supported of the line going to Scarlett Rd than Jane St.

Until Ford is gone and better support for streetcars, the 512 extension is dead at this time until at least 2020.

When the word is GO for the EA, it will fly out the door very fast.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Nunziata push for a wider Scarlett Rd bridge with a streetcar ROW in it. This also included a redesign Dundas intersection. I believe the bridge is still on the books for construction in 2014/15.

She was more supported of the line going to Scarlett Rd than Jane St.

Until Ford is gone and better support for streetcars, the 512 extension is dead at this time until at least 2020.

When the word is GO for the EA, it will fly out the door very fast.

It was former City Councillor Howard Moscoe who asked for and got designs for a possible streetcar tracks under the Scarlett Road underpass at St. Clair Avenue West. They'll be putting in foundations for a later streetcar tracks in the underpass. Work on the underpass and the Dundas/Scarlett/St. Clair intersection is alleged to start later this year.

 

[drum118]

It was former City Councillor Howard Moscoe who asked for and got designs for a possible streetcar tracks under the Scarlett Road underpass at St. Clair Avenue West. They'll be putting in foundations for a later streetcar tracks in the underpass. Work on the underpass and the Dundas/Scarlett/St. Clair intersection is alleged to start later this year.

When the meeting for the bridge took place, there were calls for the ROW to be remove, but Nunziata said it was going to stay to meet future expansion.

Our friend from the east who opposted any ROW in this area outside his ward was one of the people pushing for the elimination of the ROW in the bridge.

Regardless, the bridge will be smaller than requested, with provision for the ROW in it. What every goes in there will be a hell a lot better than now, especially for pedestrians.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Perhaps it could be extended onto Dixon Road as well and head to the airport in a ROW.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I haven't ventured out in today's (Feb. 8, 2013) snowstorm. The radio says the streetcars on St. Clair Avenue West are packed by people because of the snow. Are they extra people switching to streetcars to avoid the north-south buses or just drivers not driving?

 

[rbt]

... or just drivers not driving?

At least two things change with heavy snowfall:

1) TTC ridership does increase with snow. A lot of people are uncomfortable driving in slippery conditions and reduced visibility. I recall a report on this phenomenon while Lastman was still running the show with regards to subway congestion on these days.

2) People wear more gear on very cold or snowy days so they take up a bit more space once they get onto the vehicle.

It's also possible people are less willing to walk. The 5 blocks to the subway station that the customer normally walks may now be done on a local route instead.

I've also wondered if slushy floors causes standees to take a wider stance for stability. This would also increase an individual footprint.

 

[ShonTron]

It was former City Councillor Howard Moscoe who asked for and got designs for a possible streetcar tracks under the Scarlett Road underpass at St. Clair Avenue West. They'll be putting in foundations for a later streetcar tracks in the underpass. Work on the underpass and the Dundas/Scarlett/St. Clair intersection is alleged to start later this year.

Oh, how I miss Howard Moscoe. He was a lousy TTC Chair, but otherwise an interesting councillor, with a spine, unlike Josh Colle.

 

[nfitz]

At least two things change with heavy snowfall:

1) TTC ridership does increase with snow. A lot of people are uncomfortable driving in slippery conditions and reduced visibility. I recall a report on this phenomenon while Lastman was still running the show with regards to subway congestion on these days.

2) People wear more gear on very cold or snowy days so they take up a bit more space once they get onto the vehicle.

It's also possible people are less willing to walk. The 5 blocks to the subway station that the customer normally walks may now be done on a local route instead.

When I used to drive mostly to work, I'd switch to TTC on very snowy days. And I also will wait for TTC for shorter trips instead of walking when it's messy like today.

I'll also use differing routes than I usually do, to try and avoid less reliable routes.

There's certainly problems out there, but TTC seems to be doing a great job all things considering.

 

[calimehtar]

I live near Rogers and Dufferin and work near Yonge and Finch. I didn't go to work yesterday but if I had I would have gone south to St. Clair to cross over to Eglinton. For one thing I often do - the travel time is about the same if I go south to St. Clair as if I take the Eglinton bus, even though the total distance traveled is approximately 1km further. But the simply because of the right of way, there are many fewer places a streetcar on St. Clair can be delayed by other vehicles, so I would expect it to be much more reliable.

There are other trips I can make where I might consider taking the Streetcar - for example coming from downtown it is generally faster to take the Bloor line to Ossington and the bus north, but by taking the Spadina subway up to St Clair West I can avoid taking a bus up the hill above Davenport which is a death trap for cars and busses when it snows like it did yesterday.

Similarly for other people who live in the area - depending on where you're trying to go, you might consider switching to St. Clair from some other surface route if you think traffic will be bad.

 

[milanista]

Perhaps it could be extended onto Dixon Road as well and head to the airport in a ROW.

I can't believe you just said that.

Years and years ago I proposed that very same idea to Rob Ford (councillor of ward 2 at the time, when I lived there). This was before I knew he was so anti, well, anti anything getting in the way of his car.
I still think it's a good idea. Dixon is a very wide street, 3 lanes each way plus some turning lanes if I recall correctly, with high density around areas like Islington. Plus of course more airport connectivity is never really a bad idea.

Of course, the existence of the Eglinton LRT (if it ever gets further west), will come into play.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I can't believe you just said that.

Years and years ago I proposed that very same idea to Rob Ford (councillor of ward 2 at the time, when I lived there). This was before I knew he was so anti, well, anti anything getting in the way of his car.
I still think it's a good idea. Dixon is a very wide street, 3 lanes each way plus some turning lanes if I recall correctly, with high density around areas like Islington. Plus of course more airport connectivity is never really a bad idea.

Of course, the existence of the Eglinton LRT (if it ever gets further west), will come into play.

That hydro line right-of-way continuing west of Scarlett Road next to Dundas Street West, (eastward would the hydro line continuing north along St. Clair) used to be the right-of-way for the Toronto Suburban’s Guelph Division radial line that ran from Keele and St. Clair all the way to Guelph.

BTW. The wooden bridge over the Humber River (used by bicycles) just north of Dundas Street West are the bridge supports for the radial streetcar bridge viaduct over the river.