TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[accura407]

I respectfully disagree, and actually see a better benefit-to-cost ratio for a short extension.

An short extension along Sheppard East (say, to Warden) would not only serve the riders currently using the 85 Sheppard and 190 STC routes, but also attract a fair number of riders from the parallel routes. Finch East will no longer need 70'' headways approaching Yonge at peak. Also, the utilization of the existing subway segment (Don Mills to Yonge) will improve if more riders are streamed through it.

In contrast, the eastmost section of subway (from where it leaves Sheppard till STC) would, basically, replace bus 190. It could get some additional riders because of the greater appeal of subway. But there is no major passenger flow towards STC from north-west, and I don't see the subway generating such a flow.

+1 Agreed.

Start an extension to Warden asap. Will serve dense warden/finch cluster plus viva green will probably just reroute to this station as well. Serves future Markham downtown at Warden/hwy 7.

Phase 2 can be an extension to Agincourt station when ridership on the Yonge to Warden section shows ridership growth.

Phase 3 to STC would be in like 2050 when trends show the 190 is high on ridership.

Everytime i see terrible weather outside like snowstorms i have to wonder how a sheppard lrt can come even near a sheppard subway in level of service.

Its better to have one gigantic fast commuter stream in northern scarborough than multiple small slow streams.

 

[Solid Snake]

I support the Sheppard subway but I agree that the DRL is ridiculously needed. As a resident of CityPlace and the area is growing exponentially, the 509 and 511 streetcar is far from being enough.

With that being said I understand the political situation in which the city is patiently waiting for the province to extend the subway to Richmond Hill and have the province pay for the DRL as a condition which sucks because we should do like Europeens and have a national transit policy.

For the Sheppard subway, I use it often since my girlfriend lives at Don Mills.

-I find it ridiculous that there's no subway between Downsview and Sheppard-Yonge. When the Spadina line extension opens for York University, Sheppard Avenue West will be a nightmare. The combined service between both subway stations on the 84 or 196 ir horrible due to heavy traffic and mismanagement of the bus routes. Starting with that part of the line makes much more sense.

-Whenever I use the line during peak hours, the subway is honestly full but why would the TTC run trains on the line until 2am??? The 85 bus can do the job after 11h30pm with no traffic on sheppard.Lots of money to save there

-For a 5.5 km subway, the ridership is most impressive...

Sheppard Line 5.5km = 47.700 weekday

**Purple line Chicago 24km = 39.799
**Pink Line Chicago 18 km = 29.242
**Yellow line Chicago 8.2km= 4.980

I think these should be the Phases

Phase I-- Sheppard-Yonge to Downsview
Phase II -- Don Mills to Victoria Park
Phase III -- Victoria Park to Agincourt
Phase IV -- Agincourt to STC

 

[Long Island Mike]

I support the Sheppard subway but I agree that the DRL is ridiculously needed. As a resident of CityPlace and the area is growing exponentially, the 509 and 511 streetcar is far from being enough.

With that being said I understand the political situation in which the city is patiently waiting for the province to extend the subway to Richmond Hill and have the province pay for the DRL as a condition which sucks because we should do like Europeens and have a national transit policy.

For the Sheppard subway, I use it often since my girlfriend lives at Don Mills.

-I find it ridiculous that there's no subway between Downsview and Sheppard-Yonge. When the Spadina line extension opens for York University, Sheppard Avenue West will be a nightmare. The combined service between both subway stations on the 84 or 196 ir horrible due to heavy traffic and mismanagement of the bus routes. Starting with that part of the line makes much more sense.

-Whenever I use the line during peak hours, the subway is honestly full but why would the TTC run trains on the line until 2am??? The 85 bus can do the job after 11h30pm with no traffic on sheppard.Lots of money to save there

-For a 5.5 km subway, the ridership is most impressive...

Sheppard Line 5.5km = 47.700 weekday

**Purple line Chicago 24km = 39.799 (Evanston Express-Linden/Wilmette to Loop)
**Pink Line Chicago 18 km = 29.242 (Douglas/Cermak Line to Loop)
**Yellow line Chicago 8.2km= 4.980 (Skokie Swift-Howard to Dempster/Skokie)

I think these should be the Phases

Phase I-- Sheppard-Yonge to Downsview
Phase II -- Don Mills to Victoria Park
Phase III -- Victoria Park to Agincourt
Phase IV -- Agincourt to STC

SS: I agree with you about the Sheppard Subway in that for what is is ridership is good...
I also agree with the phases for the SS line expansion...

I noted the Chicago CTA comparison and I noted the routes listed with their former names and/or routes for reference...
I never liked the color name routes in Chicago - in comparison with their names used previously...

LI MIKE

 

[44 North]

I find it ridiculous that there's no subway between Downsview and Sheppard-Yonge.

Although it might look good on a map, connecting those two points is not a priority. It will aid in train storage and getting trains to Yonge, but that's about it. I especially have a strong bias against it simply because I know it will dump more riders onto Yonge who would otherwise take U/S southbound.

 

[sixrings]

Although it might look good on a map, connecting those two points is not a priority. It will aid in train storage and getting trains to Yonge, but that's about it. I especially have a strong bias against it simply because I know it will dump more riders onto Yonge who would otherwise take U/S southbound.

why would you be under the impression that more people would be dumped onto yonge if an extension to downsview happened. i would suggest the opposite is more likely to happen. what i could see is that yonge and sheppard might become more of a office hub then the current condo hub that it is today.

 

[Solid Snake]

Although it might look good on a map, connecting those two points is not a priority. It will aid in train storage and getting trains to Yonge, but that's about it. I especially have a strong bias against it simply because I know it will dump more riders onto Yonge who would otherwise take U/S southbound.

What I see happening is that a lot of people working near and West of University Avenue coming from Scarborough would skip Sheppard-Yonge Station and get of at Downsview and go South.

As of now, those people automatically takes the Yonge line, so having an extension to Downsview would help the Yonge Line and increase the ridership on the Spadina line

 

[sixrings]

What I see happening is that a lot of people working near and West of University Avenue coming from Scarborough would skip Sheppard-Yonge Station and get of at Downsview and go South.

As of now, those people automatically takes the Yonge line, so having an extension to Downsview would help the Yonge Line and increase the ridership on the Spadina line

i really think this scenario is only likely as long as their is only one or two stops between the two lines. otherwise speed would trump comfort. id suggest bathurst and senlac as the two stations. bathurst because its a major intersection. senlac because extra stops around yonge and sheppard will help spread the building in all directions.

 

[44 North]

Although it's against my philosophy to advocate long distances between stations, I think one stop would be wise. This would be Bathurst North.

As history has shown us, stations built in the middle of lower density residential neighbourhoods tend to have piss poor ridership (see Glencairn and Bessarion). Guaranteed Senlac and Faywood would suffer from this for decades after Sheppard's completion.

Solid snake's example does make sense...moreso if their location is near Bloor. But what about the opposite scenario. Someone coming from the NW and not wanting to transfer at St George to reach Yonge, but uses Sheppard instead. This guarantees them a seat, and waters down service for the rest.

 

[sixrings]

Although it's against my philosophy to advocate long distances between stations, I think one stop would be wise. This would be Bathurst North.

As history has shown us, stations built in the middle of lower density residential neighbourhoods tend to have piss poor ridership (see Glencairn and Bessarion). Guaranteed Senlac and Faywood would suffer from this for decades after Sheppard's completion.

Solid snake's example does make sense...moreso if their location is near Bloor. But what about the opposite scenario. Someone coming from the NE and not wanting to transfer at St George to reach Yonge, but uses Sheppard instead.

i do agree that stations like glencarin and bessarion have terrible ridership. I would be in support of a one stop trip (bathurst)between the two lines simply for connectivity for yard access, for an alternative to the yonge line. however they would need to leave room to add in the two other stations later.

 

[44 North]

Southbound Yonge line, around Rosedale Stn - 2031

 

[kkgg7]

It also has 300,000/day stuck on slow moving streetcars.
The same sentiments are felt by those along Eglinton West. Unfortunately for them, it's another 20 years before their promised subway reaches them.
The Old City of Toronto had foresight. Since Metro, however, the city has continually been forced to cater to suburban desires. That's why the only subway system improvements have been extensions and feeder lines; further watering down service.

Agree. I think it is a strategic mistake for Toronto to consider it a priority to extend the subway to ever futher suburban areas. especially cross the City border to north of Steeles. Cities like Markham and Brampton should take the responsiblity of being real cities, instead of relying on downtown Toronto for work and entertainment. For example, Missisauga has 700K people, Brampton close to 500K, they should have own downtown and every facility its residents need. The consequence of ever extending the subway lines is to encourage their continuous reliance on downtown Toronto, which to some extent is a good thing for Toronto, but on the other hand, one they will never become their own city, and two the capacity is Toronto's infrastructure is limited.

What the city should focus on is to increase the transportation capacity within the city core and discourage people from moving further and further away from the city. Toronto is pretty sparsely population in general and there is no reason to live 20 or 30 kilometers away from downtown. TTC should increase the convenience of transportation south of Eglington, between Keele and Woodbine, for example, and increase the population density there. Increasingly extending the subway further away from the core will only encourage spawl. Anyone who decides on living north of Lawrence Ave basically prefer a suburban lifestyle, and for them to get subwy access should not really be a priority.

 

[sixrings]

What the city should focus on is to increase the transportation capacity within the city core and discourage people from moving further and further away from the city. Toronto is pretty sparsely population in general and there is no reason to live 20 or 30 kilometers away from downtown. TTC should increase the convenience of transportation south of Eglington, between Keele and Woodbine, for example, and increase the population density there. Increasingly extending the subway further away from the core will only encourage spawl. Anyone who decides on living north of Lawrence Ave basically prefer a suburban lifestyle, and for them to get subwy access should not really be a priority.

I agree with this which is why I am pro LRT north of Eglinton. Not only do these streets not justify subway through how many riders they could provide, but they are wide enough to have LRT built down the middle lanes. Ideally sheppard to would be converted to LRT. However I would at least like a connection from downsview to yonge to happen versus arguing for the next 10 years over what transit option we should go with. 2015 will quickly be here and sheppard will be the same and no construction will be in the ground nor will funding be in place. Then will sheppard and scarborough residents say to themselves "i still have to transfer from bus to subway. at least i could have been in a lrt by now." sadly i think some people might be so stubburn to never admit that LRT although not perfect would have been better then nothing. Then again maybe its just the forumers on here that are representing scarborough and sheppard resieents as being so anti lrt and uncomprimisable.

 

[andrewpmk]

Agree. I think it is a strategic mistake for Toronto to consider it a priority to extend the subway to ever futher suburban areas. especially cross the City border to north of Steeles. Cities like Markham and Brampton should take the responsiblity of being real cities, instead of relying on downtown Toronto for work and entertainment. For example, Missisauga has 700K people, Brampton close to 500K, they should have own downtown and every facility its residents need. The consequence of ever extending the subway lines is to encourage their continuous reliance on downtown Toronto, which to some extent is a good thing for Toronto, but on the other hand, one they will never become their own city, and two the capacity is Toronto's infrastructure is limited.

What the city should focus on is to increase the transportation capacity within the city core and discourage people from moving further and further away from the city. Toronto is pretty sparsely population in general and there is no reason to live 20 or 30 kilometers away from downtown. TTC should increase the convenience of transportation south of Eglington, between Keele and Woodbine, for example, and increase the population density there. Increasingly extending the subway further away from the core will only encourage spawl. Anyone who decides on living north of Lawrence Ave basically prefer a suburban lifestyle, and for them to get subwy access should not really be a priority.

While I agree that distant suburbs need better downtowns, people still need to get between those downtowns and Toronto (in both directions). In the case of Mississauga and Brampton these should be served by the GO network not the subway network. On routes with no rail corridors that can be expanded, subway expansion may be needed, such as Eglinton/Sheppard for east west suburb to suburb travel and to relieve the 401, Yonge north to Highway 7 which goes through fairly urban areas (remember that Richmond Hill is useless for people going anywhere but Union) etc. I do not agree that we should neglect transit expansion in the suburbs in favor of that in the city because (a) many "suburbs" of Toronto are pretty urban now (like North York Centre) and (b) housing is costly in this city, condos suitable for families are hard to find and expensive so people may need to commute.

 

[uptownto]

But what about the opposite scenario. Someone coming from the NW and not wanting to transfer at St George to reach Yonge, but uses Sheppard instead. This guarantees them a seat, and waters down service for the rest.

Nobody boarding a train on Sheppard going southbound on Yonge is guaranteed a seat, especially in rush hours, and especially if a Sheppard train just unloaded. But a lot of people would 'go out of the way' for a more comfortable ride I imagine. I know a few people living in the Yonge+Sheppard area that are taking the northbound train to Finch just to get a seat before continuing southbound. This gets you a seat, but you still have to live with the crush loads, so not much of an advantage.

I too live in the area, and only rarely am able to actually sit going southbound and I'm just an occasional user mostly evenings and weekends. I am supportive of the western link to Downsview as I believe it would balance the distribution. People make time/comfort/$$ trade-off decisions all the time.

 

[kkgg7]

I agree with this which is why I am pro LRT north of Eglinton. Not only do these streets not justify subway through how many riders they could provide, but they are wide enough to have LRT built down the middle lanes. Ideally sheppard to would be converted to LRT. However I would at least like a connection from downsview to yonge to happen versus arguing for the next 10 years over what transit option we should go with. 2015 will quickly be here and sheppard will be the same and no construction will be in the ground nor will funding be in place. Then will sheppard and scarborough residents say to themselves "i still have to transfer from bus to subway. at least i could have been in a lrt by now." sadly i think some people might be so stubburn to never admit that LRT although not perfect would have been better then nothing. Then again maybe its just the forumers on here that are representing scarborough and sheppard resieents as being so anti lrt and uncomprimisable.

It totally makes sense to have LRT north of Eglington. I even think the downtown streetcars make little sense unless they have their own center lane. LRT is much much cheaper and takes shorter time to construct. Why do you need to spend billion to big holes under Fitch Ave or Sheppard, the most of part of is very low density?
I strongly believe the city should focus density on South-of-Eglington areas. When subway goes there, condos follow, people follow and business follow. The good result is a much denser midtown, resulting in shorter commute in general. Extending Yonge/Spadina further north is a horrible idea and will not encourage people to live farther and farther away.