TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[Hopkins123]

I've put this in the appropriate thread, over from the Relief Line thread.

I do like this this alot, but I think it should above ground entirely from O' Connor to Sheppard ave, we need to save as much money as possible. Is there a way you could get a map like this done for an elevated Sheppard subway and Scarborough subway?

Because I am to please:



As you can see, the subway emerges out of a portal on the southeast side of Highway 404 and immediately has a station at Consumers Rd. About 500 metres east of the station the line bridges over Sheppard Ave to transition towards the next station just east of Victoria Park Ave. The alignment stays on the north side of Sheppard on land currently that's a green space strip, with further stations at Warden and Birchmount. The Kennedy station would provide access to Agincourt Mall. About 200 metres east of the station the line veers southeast into the Highland Creek alignment to have the GO interchange station at the rail junction. The next section descends to at-grade level to travel underneath the 401 in an expanded rail underpass, then elevates again to align with a newly constructed and fortified Midland station. The new subway-ready elevated guideway continues for another kilometre til near Brimley where it descends underground. Scarborough Centre Stn exists in its same location with a St George style interchange between the BD and Sheppard Lines (BD follows the existing SRT corridor at grade, with a revamped Kennedy Station and a tunneled section with a wider curve north of Ellesmere station). This allows for either subway line to extend further towards Malvern in the future if funding permits.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I've put this in the appropriate thread, over from the Relief Line thread.



Because I am to please:



As you can see, the subway emerges out of a portal on the southeast side of Highway 404 and immediately has a station at Consumers Rd. About 500 metres east of the station the line bridges over Sheppard Ave to transition towards the next station just east of Victoria Park Ave. The alignment stays on the north side of Sheppard on land currently that's a green space strip, with further stations at Warden and Birchmount. The Kennedy station would provide access to Agincourt Mall. About 200 metres east of the station the line veers southeast into the Highland Creek alignment to have the GO interchange station at the rail junction. The next section descends to at-grade level to travel underneath the 401 in an expanded rail underpass, then elevates again to align with a newly constructed and fortified Midland station. The new subway-ready elevated guideway continues for another kilometre til near Brimley where it descends underground. Scarborough Centre Stn exists in its same location with a St George style interchange between the BD and Sheppard Lines (BD follows the existing SRT corridor at grade, with a revamped Kennedy Station and a tunneled section with a wider curve north of Ellesmere station). This allows for either subway line to extend further towards Malvern in the future if funding permits.

Amazing! Thank you. I think this could be easily donw. I especially didn't know about the green space strip, that's a big boost the the plan. Sheppard can be built above ground for sure. I wonder if they would continue it to Malvern or loop it in with Bloor. I think loop it in with bloor.

 

[Adjei]

This thing ain't getting built. Keep dreaming.

 

[salsa]

This thing ain't getting built. Keep dreaming.

That's right. This discussion could might as well be moved to the fantasy thread.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

That's right. This discussion could might as well be moved to the fantasy thread.

This thing ain't getting built. Keep dreaming.

Wynne will cave. It shouldn't be built based on ridership projections, but there is enough support from the Scarborough Liberal caucus. And debaeremaker, karygiannis and co on council.

 

[M II A II R II K]

There might be a need for it when GO RER is properly set up. Then Line 4 could be a bridge between the GO Lines from Downsview Park to Agincourt.

 

[BurlOak]

I've put this in the appropriate thread, over from the Relief Line thread.



Because I am to please:

Thank you. A couple of comments:

As you can see, the subway emerges out of a portal on the southeast side of Highway 404 and immediately has a station at Consumers Rd.

• Which side of Consumers, and would this station be immediately underground. Let's say SW corner and underground. That means that track would be about 5m underground and to be elevated over a road, it would have to be at elevation 6m minimum (5m clearance to road, and 1m for bridge structure). Assuming a subway can handle 2.5% grades, this means the track needs 440m length to rise the appropriate amount. (it would actually be more than this since there would have to be a vertical curve to transition from flat grade to 2.5% grade). Let's say 500m and still likely more.
• The first street (Alta Blvd) is only ~175m to the East - It would have to be closed. After that is Settlers Road, about ~350m from Consumers - it too would have to be closed.
• It wouldn't be until opposite the mall that there would be sufficient elevation to clear a road - either Sheppard, or a re-aligned Settlers Road.
• This is actually a very large problem. Even on the north side this is a problem.
• I would suggest that the line may have to become elevated before 404. I don't know the exact geometry of the Don Mills station, but I understand it is quite deep and on the north side of Sheppard. The line would have to go under Sheppard (to avoid the off-ramp) and then it has right until the highway to rise to the correct elevation. This, I believe, is why Michael Schabas wanted to switch to SkyTrain since they can handle much steeper grades (~5%).

About 500 metres east of the station the line bridges over Sheppard Ave to transition towards the next station just east of Victoria Park Ave. The alignment stays on the north side of Sheppard on land currently that's a green space strip, with further stations at Warden and Birchmount.

I would first ask, where do I want the station - north or south side. Generally I prefer south so shadows are not cast on properties. I don't know the answer, but I can point out that a new road costs maybe $2M per lane km. Thus shifting Sheppard north and utilizing space on the south is not a huge cost compared to the savings from elevation. (I also think there is space on the South side without doing this, or maybe with just a single lane shift to the north). Generally, I would not want to cross back and forth over Sheppard unless absolutely needed.

The Kennedy station would provide access to Agincourt Mall.

Even a station on south side would serve some apartments, and a ped bridge would access the mall - which would grow towards the ped bridge with some development to create a full indoor experience.

About 200 metres east of the station the line veers southeast into the Highland Creek alignment to have the GO interchange station at the rail junction.

I would imagine this station would be on the East side of the tracks. It would have to rise to 7.2m to clear the Markham GO tracks and then drop to fit under the CPR (Crosstown) line. I havenet checked to see if the grades would work. I think I checked it before for SkyTrain and had no problems.

The next section descends to at-grade level to travel underneath the 401 in an expanded rail underpass, then elevates again to align with a newly constructed and fortified Midland station.

I think you have 500m from the CPR to the 401, this may be enough space to elevate over 401 - much less disruptive than building a new bridge over a combined GO and subway.

The new subway-ready elevated guideway continues for another kilometre til near Brimley where it descends underground.

Again, There is 200m from Borough Drive to the STC station - not enough room to descend. I think it would have to descend west of Brimley.

Scarborough Centre Stn exists in its same location with a St George style interchange between the BD and Sheppard Lines (BD follows the existing SRT corridor at grade, with a revamped Kennedy Station and a tunneled section with a wider curve north of Ellesmere station). This allows for either subway line to extend further towards Malvern in the future if funding permits.

It may be a bit tight to fit 4 tracks on the SRT corridor between Midland and Brimley. I guess you are saying the B-D tracks would be lower, and the Sheppard tracks above. It may be possible for 1 of the lines to switch to Golden Gate Court and then come in with a new STC station about 100m south of the current location. or just interline the tracks just east of Midland.

 

[BurlOak]

Toronto Maps seems to show equal space north and south of Sheppard - about 6.5m from curb to property line.

http://map.toronto.ca/maps/map.jsp?app=TorontoMaps_v2

 

[Rainforest]

Unfortunately, Sheppard East is not wide enough to welcome an elevated heavy-rail line. Technically you might be able to squeeze it in, but there would be too much public resistance.

If you want an alternative to tunneling all the way, then perhaps some sections of 401 may be reconfigured, and / or a lane taken away to make room for the rail line.

And, it is likely easier to extend the line with a technology other than wide-bodied TTC subways with their 300 m preferred turning radius. Either a high-floor LRT, or Mk-III type rolling stock may be more suitable for the task.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Sheppard has a 36m right of way in the OP. a 5 lane road (2 lanes each direction, left turn lane) needs about 16m of that. turn that to 20m with bike lanes, 26m with 3m sidewalks. Leaves you with 10m to fit the elevated rail line. Could be tight.

You would certainly need some level of expropriation.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Wynne will cave. It shouldn't be built based on ridership projections, but there is enough support from the Scarborough Liberal caucus. And debaeremaker, karygiannis and co on council.

Scarborough transit issues aren't some kind of invincible political force.

The Sheppard Subway is the most controversial transit proposal in the City of Toronto. It's widely though of as being a boondoggle. Supporting this extension, while winning some Scarborough seats, may very well drive seats elsewhere in the city and region into the hands of the NDP and PCs. The Liberals are polling second place to the PCs, even in Toronto. They really can't afford to support something so controversial.

Supporting the Relief Line Long extension is a much safer option for them. It still would greatly increase their favourability in Scarborough, where the RLL would be of most benefit, while also increasing their favourability around the city.

 

[rbt]

Wynne will cave. It shouldn't be built based on ridership projections, but there is enough support from the Scarborough Liberal caucus.

Supporting the Relief Line Long extension is a much safer option for them. It still would greatly increase their favourability in Scarborough, where the RLL would be of most benefit, while also increasing their favourability around the city.

Wynne hasn't won much popularity with the number of gifts she's given the GTA. Toss in the number of issues getting something actually built (in Toronto, Brampton LRT, Hamilton LRT) and I'd be surprised if she promises much for municipal transit other than point at the recent gas tax expansion and say "go to it".

Maybe something like Milton and Richmond Hill RER (by 2028) will appear as a add-on to current in-progress transit promises.

Promising to pay the SRT replacement 10 years ago brought nothing but political pain across all 3 mayors since. Policy wonks will look at that and think throwing DRL money at a short-term 10% hydro subsidy would get far more political bang for their buck.

Of course, I also don't expect a Liberal majority in the next election either. If NDP promise DRL funding they might just get it done in partnership with whomever forms government.

 

[11th]

There might be a need for it when GO RER is properly set up. Then Line 4 could be a bridge between the GO Lines from Downsview Park to Agincourt.

With that and feeding all Scarborough N-S bus routes between Victoria Park and Midland into Line 4, will that bring a big boost to the line's ridership?

 

[BurlOak]

Sheppard has a 36m right of way in the OP. a 5 lane road (2 lanes each direction, left turn lane) needs about 16m of that. turn that to 20m with bike lanes, 26m with 3m sidewalks. Leaves you with 10m to fit the elevated rail line. Could be tight.

You would certainly need some level of expropriation.

The elevated rail line would be about 8m wide. 2 tracks for 3.0m wide trains and a 2.0m (emergency) walkway. This would be supported on ~2.0m diameter pier columns with pier caps. thus, the 2m bike lane,could be on the street side of the pier column, and the sidewalk on the opposite side. This changes the math a bit.

From South to North
3m buffer
8m track (includes 3m sidewalk, 2m pier column, and 2m bike lane)
1m buffer
16m roadway
1m buffer
2m bike lane
3m sidewalk
2m buffer
Two things that can be done.
Use U girders where the train runs inside the girders - this lowers the grade for trains (and passengers) to climb. It creates partial height walls for noise abatement.
Glass enclosure over the roof.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Scarborough transit issues aren't some kind of invincible political force.

The Sheppard Subway is the most controversial transit proposal in the City of Toronto. It's widely though of as being a boondoggle. Supporting this extension, while winning some Scarborough seats, may very well drive seats elsewhere in the city and region into the hands of the NDP and PCs. The Liberals are polling second place to the PCs, even in Toronto. They really can't afford to support something so controversial.

Supporting the Relief Line Long extension is a much safer option for them. It still would greatly increase their favourability in Scarborough, where the RLL would be of most benefit, while also increasing their favourability around the city.

Wynne hasn't won much popularity with the number of gifts she's given the GTA. Toss in the number of issues getting something actually built (in Toronto, Brampton LRT, Hamilton LRT) and I'd be surprised if she promises much for municipal transit other than point at the recent gas tax expansion and say "go to it".

Maybe something like Milton and Richmond Hill RER (by 2028) will appear as a add-on to current in-progress transit promises.

Promising to pay the SRT replacement 10 years ago brought nothing but political pain across all 3 mayors since. Policy wonks will look at that and think throwing DRL money at a short-term 10% hydro subsidy would get far more political bang for their buck.

Of course, I also don't expect a Liberal majority in the next election either. If NDP promise DRL funding they might just get it done in partnership with whomever forms government.

If they don't win all of Toronto, they will probably lose the election. They painted themselves into this corner by flipflopping on the Bloor extension. They will demand the other subway, as soon as this one gets approved I said. Well look at that attempt with the Big Bend. It is what it is .